TODAY'S GUEST: Dr. Laurie Bennet-cook, sexologist, sex surrogate and sexuality expert

I'm extremely happy to welcome Dr. Laurie Bennet Cook to Hard Conversations!

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook is a graduate level Clinical Sexologist, with an undergraduate degree in psychology and a Doctorate Degree in Human Sexuality. As a Clinical Sexologist, she believes a large part of her job is to be a sex enabler. Through counseling, workshops, and hands on exercises, she assists others in achieving the level of sexual function they desire. She enjoys the study and research of not only what people are doing sexually, but how they feel about it. Dr. Laurie divides her time between Los Angeles California, and Salt Lake City, Utah. In addition to seeing clients in either of her offices or via skype, she is President for the non-profit, Sex Positive Los Angeles inc. (SPLA) and recently began a chapter in Salt Lake City, (SP-SLC). Her non-profit offers sexual education and support programs throughout Los Angeles and Salt Lake Counties. Rounding off her work, she is an IPSA certified Surrogate Partner Therapist working with clients and therapists in a triadic model to assist in bringing clients comfortable with their sexual selves. Dr. Laurie can be found in various publications; radio, podcast, and television interviews. For individual consultations or appointments please contact her at DrLaurieBennettCook@gmail.com Welcoming and affirming of all gender identities, all sexual orientations, all sexual and relationship expressions.

• WEBSITE:

  https://about.me/kinkucation

• Instagram:

• https://www.instagram.com/dr.lbc/?hl=en

YOU'LL LEARN

• Why it’s often better to work on sexual issues in couple’s therapy

• The importance of desire and arousal during sex

• The way eroticism is portrayed in movies in porn in novels is not in fact healthy, integrated eroticism

• The detriments of sexual shame

• Practical tips you can try at home

• The upside and downside of Viagra

• Insights on sexuality

• Differences between how erectile issues affect men and women

• The benefits of online sex therapy

• And more!

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING to my male sexuality and sex therapy podcast!

To get more hard conversations sent directly to your device as episodes become available, you can subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher!

Also, reviews on iTunes are extremely helpful and greatly appreciated! I read each and every one of them, and feel free to share your URL there so I can contact you later on and say thanks!

And lastly, if you have any questions (or would like answers to previously submitted voicemail questions!), head on over to Tim’s website.

About the Show

Introducing Hard Conversations, a podcast about male sexuality, and all things erectile, from the latest natural erectile dysfunction treatment to the best ed medical treatment. Therapist Tim Norton expands the conversation about male sexuality, adds context to why we struggle as a society to have hard conversations and breaks down how in a sex-positive environment there really is no room for taboos, judgment, or shame when it comes to penises.

YOUR online sex therapy and couple’s therapy HOST:

Tim Norton is a sex positive sex therapist working in private practice. He offers online therapy, online sex therapy, online sex coaching, and therapy and coaching for somatic symptom disorder.

Tim obtained his bachelor’s and master’s degrees from the University of Southern California. Tim is a proud member of American Association of Sex Counselors, Educators, and Therapists (AASECT), the Los Angeles Sexological Association, and works part-time with the Pain Psychology Center in Beverly Hills.

Hard Conversations Podcast Transcript

Tim Norton: Hello, and welcome to hard conversations like to introduce my guest. Today Dr. Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook Bennett Cook, clinical sexologist, who studied at the Institute for the advanced study of human sexuality. She is also a sexual surrogate. She is the chapter lead for sex positive Los Angeles and the new and upcoming sex positive salt Lake city.

And you're working on a book. Aren't you? 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: I am. Thank you for, yeah. Plugging. 

Tim Norton: Yes. I'm so excited and ditch you're here. We've been trying to get those together for a while [00:01:00] now. And this is, this is going to be a good talk. Okay. So let's get into it. Let's talk about penises, Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook out, 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: please. Yes. Favorite topic.

Tim Norton: Is it your favorite place? How do you feel about 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: penises? Well, I happen to like them very much. Thank you for asking. Okay. 

Tim Norton: You're welcome.  so. You know, last time I had on a sex therapist, my first episode, I'm a sex therapist. So we're talking about things from a very hands-off clinical perspective. And what I was excited to talk to you about was, so you worked at a brothel for a year and in your sex surrogate work, you have tons of hands-on experience.

So I wanted to. To dive into some of that. So for instance, and in a typical week, does somebody ever come to you for, to work on EDD or erectile issues as a 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: surrogate? Actually, that's a pretty common thing that people come and seek surrogacy out for. [00:02:00]  all too often, somebody will be seeing a sex therapist.

For such issues, as, you know, being sex therapist yourself, the concerns that come up are,  you know, things aren't just working the way they want them to.  I can't perform what I want to perform. My partner's not happy I have anxiety or,  I think she's hot or he's amazing. And I'm just really into this person, but my equipment just won't work when the way that I want it to,  Talking just, can't always get to the things that need to be done because you can talk to somebody and say, Oh, sure.

And try these things and go home and practice. But there's not necessarily somebody to go home and practice with.  or maybe what you have said to dude, didn't quite sound clear to the person who's supposed to go home and try it.  and just like anything else we learn by doing. So that's where hands-on work.

It's really effective. 

Tim Norton: Yeah, no, I know. I certainly have,  sent more than a few guys home with a homework assignment and, you know, we've got a lot of things [00:03:00] going on during the week and, you know, tons of other reasons why it might not happen. Yeah. And yeah, it's, it's a hard thing to work on, especially without a partner or even with a partner, you know, there, there are a lot of things that can happen where it doesn't go as planned, you know, there can be, she's going to have a hole or, or he, the partner is going to have an experience that might somehow throw my client off.

Right.  and, but not with you with you, that's going to be, you're going to be. 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: Well, I'm the pro.

And sometimes what happens all too often, though, is something gets muddled in the communication because you can be as clear as you want to be with your client and their partner partners, whoever they're in, they're seeing you with,  But it doesn't mean that it's going to come out the way that you want it to when they do start working together.

And when I'm working with somebody, whether it's just myself and the person has concerns [00:04:00] over the way things are working or along with their partner as well.  it's interesting because too often I can say, okay, this is how you're going. I'm just throwing something out there. This is how you're going to grasp the peanut penis.

And I can be right there saying, this is how you're going to do it. And hands on, show them, this is how you're going to do it. And they still won't do it the same way. So I'm not saying you could tell everybody to grasper peanuts, I'm just saying. So it can be that there needs to be like that, that much actual clarity to be able to have somebody say like, no, you know, okay.

This, that to really get a lot of instruction right down to the minute detail, it just gets lost. People are nervous.  They don't like that they even have to have homework around this stuff to begin with anyway. So there's a lot of shame involved, so really to have something hands-on and there it's just so valuable, so 

Tim Norton: valuable.

Absolutely. And let me back up, I, you know, in our world, A sexual surrogate is very normal. [00:05:00] And so I'm trying to obviously reach a larger audience,  than, than sex educators and sex therapists and sex surrogates who know about this. So could you briefly tell us what, what a sex surrogate is and what a sex surrogate 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: does?

So sex surrogate works in a triadic model with a sex therapist. So a client would be coming to see you for whatever sexual concerns issues.  I don't like the word dysfunction, so,  whatever. Yeah. Thank you. It's just, yeah. That just is a negative connotation right there. So whatever it is that they feel that they need to come to talk to somebody about that isn't working the way they want it to work.

 you will talk with them at whatever point that you can take them through talk therapy and many times that's enough and you can find out what the barriers are and people can find themselves living there, sexualized, fulfilling in a way that is pleasing to them. But that isn't always the case.  sometimes people are older versions or they are, have had some sexual trauma or they have had a negative experience that just [00:06:00] won't clear their psyche.

 Whatever the concern, whatever the situation is that has put them in that place talk therapy, isn't cutting through whatever it is. And just like learning to drive a car, just like learning to cook, just like any of the other things that we need to learn to do. Some people just need a hands-on mentor.

Right. There that is experienced. That is non-shaming. That is not going to judge them, that can walk them through all the steps needed. So as a surrogate, that's my position. So I would go in and meet with the therapist and the client together,  in like a first triadic meeting together. So that. It's in a space where the client already feels supported.

The therapist is there.  we can talk about transparency so that the client is aware that the therapist and I will be communicating together over the work that's going to be taking place. And we will set up a plan of action going forward. What's best what the client's goals are. You know what they're.

Concerns are that they're struggling with right now, what the challenges are they're [00:07:00] facing, facing, and what we need to do to get them where they want to be. And then we set up our appointments. So ideally I would meet with a client earlier in the week, and then they would meet with a therapist afterwards.

Sometimes the same day or later in the week. So they would have a session with me. I would be able to give the client,  the,  therapist to call afterwards, let them know, Hey, this is what we worked on. These are challenges that came up. These are successes.  And then the client meets with a therapist later that day or in the week.

And they processed together what happened and together talk about what would be good going forward. And then therapist calls me and says, this is what we processed together. This is what we were thinking would be good going forward. And then the client and I meet. Again, and that continues as long as necessary.

 a lot of people think that, okay, so somebody is coming to you with sexual issues. So then that means that all you're doing, having sex with your patient, with your clients and sex is really the least of it that [00:08:00] has happened. But that is actually a rarity.  most clients. Through the process realize that where their hang ups are around intimacy and connection and something in their psyche that just is not connecting and is creating a barrier to their penis functioning the way that they want it to.

So, yeah. 

Tim Norton: Okay. You say that the peanuts functioning the way that they want it to, 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. It's just not cooperating. Absolutely. 

Tim Norton: And that's so. Let's say a sex therapist who isn't really careful about their language calls you and says, so I've got a client with ed, you've stopped them in their tracks and you, what do you say?

Or, or, or the guy comes in and says, I have erectile dysfunction. How would you try to have him 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: reframe that? I usually just let him tell his story the way that he wants to.  I don't come up. I don't. Jump right off immediately. When I hear him just say like, it's not dysfunction and start preaching my own soapbox, but,  I just let them use their verbiage, their [00:09:00] wording and try to meet them where they are at.

And when they're done telling their story, then I like to,  offer some encouragement and just. Share how I, there there's actual very little dysfunction that happens with a penis. There are things that cause can cause it to not cooperate the way we want it to such as medications or life stressors or health issues or not enough sleep or just whatever.

There's so many things there. You're just not in the mood because. You're not always going to be able to just turn on immediately.  and that that's not necessarily a dysfunction on your penis as part, it may not be cooperating, but it's not a dysfunction. Right? So to take that word kind of out of our conversation is really helpful because the word itself is very,  there's something wrong that has to be fixed and there's not, most of the time there's not something wrong, it just needs to.

Just kind of be flushed out. Yeah. I guess for no [00:10:00] pun intended, but yeah, definitely. 

Tim Norton: So, so walk us through,   I don't know if there is a typical client who comes presenting with this issue or. What's what's the typical course of treatment. And what are the sessions like? 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: Oh, let's see. So normally somebody who would come to me with having either been self-diagnosed or by there sometimes by their doctors,  with ed are usually,  older.

A few times I've had somebody that's been in their twenties or thirties. We usually they're older gentlemen.  and they will come thinking, you know, like everything was working fine. I don't know what it was. I was on this date and now nothing works and I have ed or,  I haven't dated for a while. I'm widowed.

And you know, now I'm trying to, and things don't work like they should be,  The older men tend to compare themselves to how they function when they were in their twenties and thirties. And that's [00:11:00] unrealistic.  we go over what medications they may be taking because especially in a really quick to fill a prescription society, that's something that a lot of them have faced and they take medications for different things.

Many times medications have a side effect of lowered libido, especially psychiatric meds. That seems to be something,   blood pressure medications. Diabetic medications. They all have,  side effects of those things. So that's all normal. Cause it's, you know, a side effect of whatever they're going through.

 it's a really it's so varied. The reason that they might be becoming. We're not coming, I guess I should say,  they're coming to see me in particular. This whole 

Tim Norton: topic is a landmine. So there's a plum. I feel for 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: positives, get a little more clear here. So it really depends on the client themselves. So if somebody is coming to me because,  Suddenly [00:12:00] things aren't working the way they thought it was.

We might talk about like the different stresses in their life and, and put them in like a relaxing place and talk about like, well, how is it that you go about having sex with somebody? What are the, you know, a lot of the things that you as a therapist have probably talked with them about,  for whatever reason, because they know that they're, that,  there's going to be touch involved with me.

Sometimes they tend to dish out more than they do with their therapist.  And I'm not really sure why that is. It could just because they, I don't know that it. I don't really know. Hmm. Ask them next time they're in there. Yeah. But,  it's but that's okay.  and then we start with just simple exercises of just kind of getting to know each other,  just really kind of slowing things down because too often, men in general have goal oriented sex.

So they want to get together with somebody. And the goal is,  I see it. Somebody that I like, [00:13:00]  I'm going to get hard. We're going to foreplay for a few minutes. There's going to be penetration somewhere and I'm going to get off and hopefully one partner will too. And if you're not hard enough to get pen to penetrate, or you're not getting off, then something's wrong with you.

You know, that's what they tend to think. That's the story. Yes. Yeah. That's the narrative that, that you grew up with.  so getting slowing things down and starting to work on intimacy relation,  and different exercises around that and having things like just holding hands for awhile. Hmm. I gazing having our breath, the same spooning,  caressing, different parts of the body,  and isolating the touch, knowing that like today we're going to caress the back and only the back for 15 minutes and I'm going to curse you.

And then you're going to Cress me. That's as far as it's going, that's all we're doing really gets people to slow down and take the goal off and heighten those [00:14:00] senses that,  have become desensitized. Many times they haven't even been, Oh, they haven't even been recognized that they're even there to begin with because they're not part of the penis.

So why would you focus on the back?  yes. Did that really answer your question? I know you're totally just rambled, 

Tim Norton: rambled in a perfectly coherent way. So you start small, you start with intimacy, you start and maybe not even call that small as some of the most important parts or the most enjoyable parts of being naked and alone with somebody.

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: Yeah, it's really interesting because very often when I would say more times than not, when we're doing,  an exercise, even if it's just like caressing hands or caressing, the face,  clients will break down and cry because it's. Such a vulnerable place to be when you are just in a passive or an active role that isn't goal oriented, because you can't really hide from the [00:15:00] person that you're with so much, it's really causes you to have to be very present.

And that's a really hard thing to do for people. 

Tim Norton: Oh, definitely. Yeah. And so when that happens, when. He breaks down and cries as he storm out of the session? Or how do you bounce back from 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: that? Just work through it, just go through it. Yeah. Just sit with it and acknowledge it and let it pass and acknowledge how okay it is and then process it.

And you know, why do you think that came up and what was it? And then move on to something else. That's going to push the boundaries even a little more and just keep. Keep it growing. We start off with the, with small things that only in small parts of the body, like I said, maybe just hands for five minutes and then move up to like fingertips to forearms for like seven minutes and then fingertips to your shoulder for 10 minutes and just keep expanding where we're touching for the amount of time.

 and this is over time for some people just hands in a session is more than [00:16:00] an have to cause them to go like, Whoa, okay. I'm feeling a little overwhelmed. Yeah. And for other people that are like, yeah, okay, well, what the heck was that?  but it just increases your ability to be present and to really feel and absorb what it is that you're experiencing.

Tim Norton: So interesting. And so in, in generalizing that, and. Taking that home. So you guys hold hands and there's an emotional experience or just there's intimacy. And now,  he, or, or the person with the penis has to go home and apply some of this stuff.  When does it, when does it quote unquote work or when is it, when is that kind of a challenge?

When is it not generalizing? Like what, what do you see 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: as far as, what do you mean? Like, so 

Tim Norton: now he's been intimate with you and now he wants to go home and have some sex. So when. 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: Most of the people that I'm seeing don't have partners. And that's one of the reasons that they need to see somebody [00:17:00] because they have somebody to practice with.

Right.  when surrogacy started, it was way back with masters and Johnson and they, they had couples come in that they were working with with their sexual concerns. Those that didn't have partners, they hired prostitutes to work with the unpartnered people and they found it to be extremely effective. So then they started a whole surrogate program.

Just a little backstory. Yeah. So. To have somebody that has a partner. If the partner's willing, then the partner can come to session as well. And then that's really helpful because I can work,  hands-on with somebody and say, okay, so th and have the partner right there with me, like, this is how. I would do this, you know, this is what we're finding to be effective.

Now you try and go back and forth and, and work with the two of them being able to communicate together. A lot of times that's the biggest barrier is that partners have a hard time saying, I like it when you  or I don't like it when you don't do this. They think that just moaning [00:18:00] and sighing is enough for somebody to know exactly what you mean.

And it never is.  so if they, if they are partnered and the partner is willing, Then it's great. If the partner will come to session as well, I'm totally open to that. And I've done that. 

Tim Norton: Okay. I guess, as you started to say earlier than you're guiding the partner through different things,  and when you say communication, so can you speak more to that?

So what are typically, cause you'll read about this in erectile dysfunction, blogs, and those kinds of things like,  The different pitfalls for you can S someone could say, Oh, it's okay. I don't care. You know, it could be a response or,  you know, not saying anything. And so what are, what are you finding that a lot of partners are doing that aren't helping.

The 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: situation, they just don't talk. Like we don't, we don't have a hard time telling somebody like, well, I don't really like my food [00:19:00] spicy. So if you're going to cook for me, thank you so much. But I would really like it if you didn't put the Serratia in the, you know, on the tacos.  but if you're going to have sex, Like we don't like to tell somebody, well, I don't really like it rough.

I like it really, you know, soft and gentle. So if we are going to do this, then I would really like it. If you could slow down and take your time with me, that just doesn't like, people just don't communicate that way. And we have no role models for that anywhere.  all of our media people get together, we just met and then we kiss in the next scene.

I mean, they go from like their first kiss. At a nightclub or in the street. And then somehow they went back to their apartment, but they get to the 

Tim Norton: apartment and 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: they're in this frenzy as they walk in the door and they're ripping each other's clothes off and they have sex. And then the next scene is they wake up.

They're like, Oh, what's the most perfect, amazing. But there was no communication. There was no, I don't like it when you do this. I don't like it. When you do that. Or I do like this, I do like that. There [00:20:00] was a movie. I think it was called two night stand or something like that. That is really a really good role model for communicating with a lover about sex.

 and it was, I think that's what it's called. I'll have to look it up, but it was,  this couple met for a one night stand and they accidentally got snowed in together. And so the, and they, you know, woke up and they're like, right. I don't really even know you don't want to be here. So the second night they're like, okay, We'll do this, but we both get to tell each other what we like.

And don't like, and you know, direct each other going forward. Cause they admitted, you know, like I really didn't have fun last night. You really didn't do anything for me. And so they, the whole next sex scene is in saying, Oh no, actually don't touch me like that. Touch me like this. Oh wait. Now that was too fast.

Now I need it like this. And just really like talking back and forth. And it doesn't mean you have to do that every single time, but you need to be open to that.  most people are not, most people are not definitely. 

Tim Norton: And it's, it's 

[00:21:00] Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: not supposed to be. We're just supposed to just know. Cause if he really loves me, he'll know how to touch me.

Yeah. You don't know how to like said you don't know how you like their pizza. Oh, am I going to hire like your sex? 

Tim Norton: Right. And so everybody's going to say, Oh, but Lori, that's just going to kill the mood. 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: Is it though? Is it, is it really going to kill the mood? Maybe that first time it might be a little different and it can be fun to be talking to each other and just say, Oh, not direct this way or that way, but the next time you get together with that person, think about it.

You already know you've been directed. You're not going to have to have any guessing games. I know what you like, look at this. Let's go right. 

Tim Norton: And so valuable to have a conversation. If it's a longterm partner, you might have sex. Several thousand times. So what have a couple of sessions involve more talking or every year or 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: two?

So what, how many times as a Sarah, as a sex therapist, have you sat across from couples that [00:22:00] have said we've been married for 20 years? The sex has never been good. Yeah. Well, have you shared that with your partner? Well, this is the first time I'm hearing it, you know? Well, we just don't talk about it. No, definitely.

Yeah. The, you come to me now and here I'm a stranger, but you share a mortgage together, but you can't talk about like, you know, we don't have a problem saying like, can you scratch my back a little lower? No, the itch right there. Oh my God. Yes. Right there. That feels so good. It's the same exact script.

It's the same exact script, but we can't do it when involve genitals. Right. So 

Tim Norton: interesting. So, so valuable. So insightful. Thank you.  yeah. So now I'm thinking about how does did this same stuff apply at the brothel where there are. What would happen there? I mean, obviously you haven't normalized. Hey, you've just been talking to a sex therapist and it's, it's more on the fly, right?

It's you're, you're in the [00:23:00] game. So,  how does it happen? W what does it look like in a, in a situation like 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: that? So working in the brothel is what got me into surrogacy to begin with, because there were so many clients that would come through there and they just needed somebody. To tell their fantasy to that as an experience, they wanted to share someone that wasn't going to make them feel bad about whatever it was.

 some of them had been, you know, like, Oh, I really like this thing, but my girlfriend makes me feel bad. Or, and I just, I can't get it up for her anymore, but I really hope that I'm not broken. I just want to make sure that I can, well, when you're sitting across from somebody who's totally gained for whatever you want to do and, and.

You know, I'm not vested. And I think that, you know, sure. Let's give it a try and,  and willing to hear the fantasies that they're ashamed or afraid to tell their partner, or maybe they've told their partner and their [00:24:00] partner has laughed at them,  to be in a place where those thoughts can be validated and you can not only feel okay about what they are, but actually feel kind of good and fun about whatever they are.

 Performance is so much better. Yeah. And you just feel, feel better for a lot of men coming through there. It was just very validating. 

Tim Norton: Yeah. A lot of guys might've been coming in because they were worried that. That they wanted to make sure that it, it still works. They want to make sure that outside of the relationship, they could have 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: an erection or actually normal.

There are many of them that are just like, well, I like this thing and my partner doesn't like it. And they think I'm a freak. And you know, that thing could be something that. That I guess the thing with sex is that it's so subjective and we tend to think of it as, you know, it's, it's not normal, [00:25:00] whatever it is.

So that thing that they, like, maybe they like pulling hair during sex and their partner is just like, that's mean that's, you know, why would you ever do something like that? And they just want to know that they're okay. And that it's fun and fine.  I had people come through that were different fetishists and, and we tend to, we, meaning society really make fun of people that have strong likes towards certain things, different fetishes.

And, and that's why there's so much underground. Around all of that. So being able to be a space where somebody can just share whatever it is and have somebody willing to play out that fantasy, whatever it was is really eco boosting as well. And really normalizing when people are shamed for something about their sexuality, because it's such a core of who we are as a human being.

It really spills over into other areas of their life as well, and can just kind of root itself in someone's overall, not just their sex esteem, but their self-esteem and make them question other parts about themselves if they're normal. So [00:26:00] yeah, the shame, shame runs really deep. It's really deep. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: And you would, and so that's an interesting transition.

So you. Well, how did you end up being inspired to go and start there in the first place? Had you already gone to school and then you were already. That was 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: actually in law school. Yes.  and all this is going to be in the book and I was at a motorcycle rally with my husband and I had always thought sex work was fan just fascinating, but I wasn't going to actually go out and do this.

 I was in my early forties at the time, so I was like, yeah, that. There's no way I'm going to go do that in my forties and go do something like this.  but basically I met somebody at the rally that happened to be in management at one of the brothels and she just through conversation, she really pushed.

She was like, no, I think you need to come try this. And,  Whatever it was that she saw [00:27:00] in me, I didn't really know that was there. So finally, out of curiosity, I was like, you know, I'll go try this just for fun, just for fun. And it completely changed. I ended up my two weeks there ended up being a year and it completely changed the way that I saw humans in general.

 and when I left there, I ended up. Dropping out of law school and changing grad schools and going to,  to grad school for sexology instead. 

Tim Norton: Wow. Yeah, no, I guess I didn't remember that part of the 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: story. It just, you just see people and learn about people and hear about people, their most authentic, transparent self, the self that they don't show outside of those doors.

And,  human beings are just raw and beautiful and vulnerable.  You know, they leave that place and those walls and go up and all the, the fake [00:28:00] identities that we create for ourselves to make ourselves access,  acceptable by society, around us, we put back up.  but that's not always who we really are, and there's not a lot of authenticity walking around.

Cause it's not always safe to do so. Whether it be, you know, with our sexuality or gender or,  fantasies, it's just not always okay. It's usually not. Okay. Yeah. 

Tim Norton:  and we talked about this before our conversation that, you know, as I hear you be so eloquent about your time doing sex work, I would be remiss to not mention Cessna that that was just fast and.

You know, it's great for people to hear you talk about what beautiful experiences you had there and how inspirational it was. And it changes the course of your life. Gay men drop out of law school when you were doing sex work and sista for all of its great intentions is adversely affecting a lot of sex workers of all shapes and sizes.

[00:29:00] Did you want to speak 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: to that? Yeah, unfortunately I think that it's. Sex trafficking is a horrible, horrible thing.  so I am completely supportive of stopping sex trafficking. Unfortunately, this isn't the way to do it is to go after all of sex workers, because there are plenty of people out there doing sex work, like myself, male, female trans,  that have a stable life at home.

I had. I have I'm saying hat. Cause at the time when I got involved as well,   family, you know, decent career like that whole America white Piguet lifestyle that people think it's what we try to attain so much. I've had all that.  and I didn't go into sex work out of desperation or to prove something to somebody or to support a drug habit or because I was sexually abused as a child or because I had daddy issues or what.

Ever the plethora of things [00:30:00] are because people put it out there. I wanted a sex work because I really like working with people. I really liked sex. I'm like any career, it's something that you find yourself good at. And you're like, you know what? I can make a positive difference in people's lives this way.

And,  this is for me, there are a lot of sex workers that feel very much the same way that I do and are good at what they do and are giving people. A level of not just pleasure, but a level of acceptance and a feeling of love and caring that they don't get any place else.  we tend to think that just because there's a money exchange that that somehow devalues what's happening weirdly because we don't ever think that the money exchange devalues, anything else that goes on in our society.

 In fact, it's just the opposite. People tend to think the more you pay the better, whatever it is that you're getting. [00:31:00]  so the fact that somebody is willing to, rather than I'm a shy person, I'm a scared person. I'm,  You just a very busy person.  I don't just, don't like dating people, person, whatever it is they have going on that makes them think they want to go to a sex worker and,  just meet with somebody it's upfront.

It's honest, there's no games. This is what I have to spend. Okay. Well, this is how much time I have to give you, what can we do on our time, this, this, and this fair exchange and that's that?  there's no games. It's just very honest.  The F, like I said, the fact that money is involved. Somehow people think that there's something terrible about it.

What I do find interesting is that if I were to have somebody come to my house and pay me money to have sex with me in the privacy of my own home, we make a decision to do that. It's illegal. [00:32:00] If that same person comes to my house and we exchange money to have sex and we film it. And put it out there for other people to see it's not illegal.

Yeah. And that doesn't make any sense to me because of what we choose to do privately as consenting adults should be nobody else's business, but our own. Yeah. So, and 

Tim Norton: yeah, and like we were saying, unfortunately,  these laws are really. Really making it unsafe for, for people 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: doing sex work out there. They really are because people already have a hard time reporting.

If some, any crimes against them.  say a client has actually been violent, which can happen. I've been very fortunate that in the many years that I've been behind this work, nothing like that has happened.  but it can. But you're already in a society where people have a hard time reporting,  sexual crimes that [00:33:00] happen, regardless if you're in sex work or not.

And now you're making it a criminal offense even more so like, it's just, I don't know. I feel like the. The people that they're not, they say they're not intending to go after, are going to be at more risk of being harmed. Yeah. And places like back page and,  communities where sex workers could communicate with each other about different clients and stuff.

If somebody was a safe person or, you know, a good client or what they thought about them and vet different people without that being available,  That makes more risk of harm as well. And it could potentially send more people to the street.  street prostitution went up, I think it was like 20%,  after red book closed a couple of years ago.

And now back page is closed. We haven't seen the statistics statistics from that yet, but I'm sure that straight work will go up, which puts more people actually at risk of being trafficked. It did trafficked, whatever how you say, [00:34:00]  So, yeah, I think it's just the wrong way to go about it. Yeah, my opinion.

Tim Norton: So I guess my next question, you might've had a different answer six months ago, but in terms of, I wouldn't want to make a choice between, or say somebody choosing between a surrogate or a sex worker, but I feel like you could speak to the value of both or, you know, if somebody, you know, what we're talking about, erectile issues,  What, what would be the things to take into consideration and you know, how confident could he feel about,  going to a place like a brothel and how, how could he, how could he vet and say, okay, this is, this would be a safe person to, to work on this 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: with.

I think that for those people that want a bit more therapy and processing to go a little bit deeper than definitely with your therapist and your surrogate is a good way to go.  it'll probably be more feasible even though. Might end up costing the same, but in the [00:35:00] long run, you'll take more time and have more sessions and be able to process a little deeper.

 But picking out a sex worker and talking to somebody and being honest about what it is that you're dealing with and finding somebody who's really conscious attentive.  isn't just there to make a quick buck and send you on your way is very valuable. And there are a lot of them out there that are like that, that are, that are very, that are in this work.

Because they love the people that they work with and they can see the value in the work that they do. So to find somebody who's an actual, very conscious caring person and being honest with them about what it is that you're facing, if they're just like, eh, yeah, it's no big deal and come on, I can take care of it.

Cause I'm good at what I do. And just, you know, one and done, probably not the person that you want to actually go work on those issues with. But if they're like, you know what, let's take our time. Let's see what we can do.  you know, there's never any guarantees, but let's go have some fun and see what works for [00:36:00] you.

 and especially if you can meet with somebody that you can meet with more than once, that would be fantastic as well, because the more comfortable you get with somebody,  and that usually happens through repetition, then the more you're going to be able to let your own vulnerability and guard down and, and take care of those things that are concerning you.

Yeah, 

Tim Norton: absolutely. So. When we're talking about all of this, we're talking about shame. And I think one of the things I see most often,  with different guys is performance anxiety.  can you speak a little bit, can you give some advice out there? What are some of the things that you coach guys on or educate them on regarding, you know, this narrative that they have to be.

Essentially be the lover. They just saw on the poor and they were watching earlier right day, then just fucked for 45 minutes straight and had this massive orgasm all over [00:37:00] on her, several faces at once. Right. And all that. So,  Add some wisdom to what's actually 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: required of, right? Yeah. Well, that's fascinating is because just the term itself, performance anxiety, you got to stop performing, right?

Like it's not a performance, it's not a performance. It is an engagement and an interaction with another human being and it's like a dance and you really need to be able to read and want to be with that other person, not just so you can show me what you got. But to be able to have an experience with somebody, whatever that looks like it doesn't have to look like.

Yeah. Okay. We kiss. And then I touch this nipple, lick that nipple my hands go down and, you know, stroke, the Cocker stroke, the vagina, whatever it is that you know, the partner. But anyway, we start, we get the Gentles and then I penetrate and boom, we're done. Right. It's like, there's not a grid. There's a grid that, [00:38:00] that people like, just stop.

How about we just get together and see what unfolds, and there is no performance other than whatever feels right between you and your partner. There's no hierarchy of best sex ever. There's no,  Skill set that you have to master or, you know, to become so great. And, you know, I can do these tricks. Well, I can make anybody squirt, well, I can make it.

And he said, stop it just, how about, can you be present with the person that you're with and actually enjoy that person's company and the fact that they are offering their time and space to spend with you. And that's a pretty big gift. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: Yeah. No. I love that. There's no performance, no performance.

Let's repeat 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: that. Okay. Even then have fun with it. Yes. 

Tim Norton: But off camera, there's no performance, right? I like [00:39:00] the analogy to a dance. That's really nice.  yeah, just like,  like,  something artistic, something like tango. I like the word play in that community. The difference between saying,  I'm, I'm gonna come over and penetrate you, you know, in so many words versus, Hey, 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: let's play.

Yeah. Yeah. And just see where, and it keeps it light and it keeps it no pressure.  and it's fun and it's okay to be like, eh, that's not working for me. Let's try something else. Well, okay. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: And, and is that anxiety that performance, anxiety quote, unquote. It must be palpable 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: when it's very common, too.

It's very common. 

Tim Norton: And, and you probably saw it,  as much in the brothel as, as a surrogate or 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: what happens most of the time when somebody is hung up on their performance and they have all this anxiety around it, more than likely,  it's [00:40:00] not going to be a good sexual experience for your partner. Yeah, because you are so in your head about how you're performing and what you're doing to look a certain way to make them feel a certain way to get whatever results it is that you're seeking that, you know, people can tell, you can tell when somebody is really trying hard to impress you or doing something,  As opposed to when somebody is really hungry for you and somebody really wants to be in your presence and really wants to enjoy you, whatever that you is.

But when you're, so in your head hung up worried about how you're doing, you can't really express that desirous,  emotion that you might be actually should be feeling for the person that you're with. And I love 

Tim Norton: the thought of. You teaching that because, so in the therapy room, I'm calling that mindfulness, right?

And I've, I've got handouts and you know, here are the things that you're doing. We're going to do it in session. [00:41:00] We're going to be mindful of chewing a raisin, or we're going to be mindful of your partner's gaze in the room. And there might be touch, you know, they might hug each other mindfully, but that's a.

Bout as, as kinky as it gets. Right. And then they've got to translate that at home to mindfulness or somebody is holding my penis or my penis is inside of somebody or, yeah, we're, we're naked. I mean, just let's just start there. Right. And so for you to be able to draw their attention to when they're tuned out or 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: when they're dissociated right.

In the 

Tim Norton: Hammond. Yeah. But that must be so exciting for them to say. I didn't even realize it. 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: Right, right. It is, it is really powerful. And that's when those kinds of things have to happen. Just like when you are teaching a child to be potty trained or something, you know, it's just, just like anything that we teach anybody about.

Anything like you, you just don't realize it until you're in that moment. And you're like, Oh, [00:42:00] Oh, that's what you mean. Okay. I get it now let's go forward. 

Tim Norton: Yeah. Putting it that way, you know, I think of, there was that example in the Christopher Ryan book about that. Tribe and remote part of China where the women take aside the men, when they hit puberty to teach them sexual skills and how nice that would be.

It's 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: a mentorship. Yeah. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: Any things that 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: you need to learn? Well, and it makes sense. I mean, they wouldn't ever allow it in our country. Right.  and I'm not telling people go out and pick a child and start doing these things right. But if you think about all the things that we have to learn, how to do to be mentored, to do that, we make sure that people know how to drive safely, how to cook, how to do a job.

All the training that you put on this is your body. This is what you are with you. This body's with you from the moment you're born until death [00:43:00] and. It makes sense that you would want to teach somebody how to use it to its best ability?  not just for yourself, but for the other people around you, whether that's in a sexual way or how you're going to do your labor or just whatever.

But you know, you exercise like train your body. This is your body. So why wouldn't you want to give it skills and. Sexuality as well as everything else that we're okay with giving our body skills in. 

Tim Norton: I know Europe encyclopedia of sexual knowledge. We can talk about things for hours.  do you want to tell us a little bit about the book or is that still kind of top secret?

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook:  it's not top secret top secret, basically. It's going to be about,  Just the, the sexual work that I've done and how I got into it. And,  some hurdles I had along the way and what got me to work. I am here today. So I guess in a roundabout way, so I have a good editor on the job, cause I'm not an editor, but [00:44:00] it's really fun.

It I'm finding it really fun to write, but I usually only write articles. So they've been after me for a long time to, to do this. So,  Fine 

Tim Norton: to hear that. Yeah. And how do people find you on the social internet, media, 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: social media? You could Google my name, Dr. Lori Bennett cook. And you will find. Things all over their Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,  I'm not a technical savvy person.

So the only website that I have is my little about me page.  but my, my, all my contact information is out there. I could be reached at,  kinky location@yahoo.com or just LBC, which are my initials@yahoo.com.  

Tim Norton: yeah. Okay. I'm there. Well, thank you so much. I, was there anything else you wanted to say? 

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: I'm sure I'll think of it as soon as 

Tim Norton: you and you'll text me and I'll add it in there.

And one thing what I want to say, we'll make sure we [00:45:00] got the name of the movie. Right. And, but thank you so much. This is so wonderful to have this voice out there and,  hopefully.  

Dr. Laurie Bennett-Cook: pleasure. Thank you. Bye.

Shout outs to the sex positive community, including sex educators, sex therapists, sex coaches, other thriller sex podcasters, sex surrogates, academics, sexual health, medical community, sex workers, the tantric community, and everybody else involved with having hard conversations. Bye-bye.