TODAY'S GUEST: Dr. Hernando Chaves, sexologist, online sex therapist, and sexpert

I'm extremely happy to welcome Dr. Hernando Chaves to Hard Conversations!

Dr. Hernando Chaves holds a B.A. in psychology from University of California Santa Barbara, a M.A. in marital and family therapy from University of San Diego, and a D.H.S. doctorate in human sexuality from the Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality. He is a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing with working with sexual minorities (kink, fetish, sex work, nonmonogamy), intimacy/relational difficulties, and sexual concerns/dysfunctions. Dr. Chaves is a psychology and sexuality professor at Orange Coast College and Pepperdine University, has presented at various academic institutions including Alliant, Cal Lutheran, CSULB, NYU, Pepperdine, USC, and USD and conferences/shows such as AVN/AEE, AASECT, Catalystcon, SSSS, and SHE and a Western Region past president for the Society for the Scientific Study of Sexuality. He has written and/or consulted for 14 instructional sex education projects, co-host for Penthouse's Sex Academy instructional series, consultant for BaDoinkVR virtual reality sex therapy instructional video, Dr. Chaves has written for Sexpert.com, AskMen.com, a contributing author to the International Encyclopedia of Human Sexuality, and been featured in publications such as Rolling Stone, The Guardian, Marie Claire, Bustle, Vice, Maxim, The Daily Star, Esquire, and Alternet. He has a private practice in Beverly HIlls and also does online sex therapy and online couple’s therapy.

• WEBSITE:

  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/hernando-chaves-beverly-hills-ca/129341

YOU'LL LEARN

• Saying ED is not compassionate - Dr. Chaves prefers uncooperative penises

• The importance of desire and arousal during sex

• The detriments of sexual shame and guilt

• People can become more sex positive and grow in their comfort with kink

• Practical tips you can try at home for improving erectile functioning

• Your penis is a thermometer that takes the temperature of your life

• Insights on sexuality

• We need bedrooms to be a safe space that can foster trust and eliminate fear

• The benefits of online sex therapy

• How Viagra and other PDE-5 inhibitors work

• Helpful information about rapid ejaculation and delayed ejaculation

• How porn and sexual imagery both enhance sexuality and create problems

• And more!

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING to my male sexuality and sex therapy podcast!

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About the Show

Introducing Hard Conversations, a podcast about male sexuality, and all things erectile, from the latest natural erectile dysfunction treatment to the best ed medical treatment. Therapist Tim Norton expands the conversation about male sexuality, adds context to why we struggle as a society to have hard conversations and breaks down how in a sex-positive environment there really is no room for taboos, judgment, or shame when it comes to penises.

YOUR online sex therapy and couple’s therapy HOST:

Tim Norton is a sex positive sex therapist working in private practice. He offers online therapy, online sex therapy, online sex coaching, and therapy and coaching for somatic symptom disorder.

Tim obtained his bachelor’s and master’s degrees from the University of Southern California. Tim is a proud member of American Association of Sex Counselors, Educators, and Therapists (AASECT), the Los Angeles Sexological Association, and works part-time with the Pain Psychology Center in Beverly Hills.

HARD CONVERSATIONS PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Tim Norton: Hello, and welcome to hard conversations. My next guest, Dr. Hernando Chaves holds a BA in psychology from the University of California, Santa Barbara, an ma in marital and family therapy from the university of San Diego and a D H S doctorate in human sexuality from the Institute for the advanced study of human sexuality.

He is a licensed marriage and family therapist, specializing with working with sexual minorities, kink fetish, sex work non-monogamy intimacy, relational difficulties and sexual concerns and dysfunctions. [00:01:00] Dr. Chaves as a psychology and sexuality professor at orange coast college and Pepperdine university.

He's presented at various academic institutions, including Alliant, Cal Lutheran, Cal state, long beach, NYU Pepperdine, USC, and the university of San Diego and conferences and shows such as AVN a E. ASAP catalyst con S S S S. And she, I saw him present she not the sexual health expo. And he was awesome.

And a Western region past president for the society, for the scientific study of sexuality, which was S S S S he has written and or consulted for 14 instructional sex education projects. Co-hosts for penthouses sex Academy instructional series consultant for Badoink VR, virtual reality sex therapy instructional video.

And Dr. Chaves has written for sexpert.com. askmen.com. He is a contributing author to the international encyclopedia of human [00:02:00] sexuality and been featured in publications, such as rolling stone, the guardian Marie, Claire bustle, vise Maxim, the daily star Esquire and alternate. Welcome Dr. Chaves. 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: Thanks for having me on.

Tim Norton: So did I leave anything out there? 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: I'm excited to be here. Gosh, you know what, biosphere, I always try to whittle them down and,  there's always things we miss. I mean, I, I sometimes tell people, I, I like watching family guy and Rick and Morty, and I also used to be a football, so, 

Tim Norton:wow.  let's, let's get right into it.

So why sex therapy? Why, why work on non. Sexual problems with individuals 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: and couples and yeah. You know, years ago when I first,  got into therapy,  I started working with children and it was. Emotional. It was challenging. It was difficult for me,  because I brought my work home with me and,  and it was too difficult to see change with the kids because of the parents also had a lot of,  issues and contributing factors to their, their, their difficulties.

So,  I had to look for something that was [00:03:00] more in line with who I was and,  You know, people always tell you, follow your heart. You should follow your passions, make passion a part of your life. And so I realized that by transitioning the sex therapy and human sexuality studies,  it was really a part of me.

It was, it was something that I've always been passionate about, always been a sexual, being a sexual person, and it just fit. And it was the best decision I've ever made. The people I work with, you know, there's a lot of,  You know, when we discipline, we discuss sexual issues. It's, it's really wonderful to see people's growth and you can see it very tangibly in front of you.

And there's a lot of,  opportunity to seek,  that,  those changes that I think really make the work fulfilling. That's 

Tim Norton:really cool. I think the community that, that we're in is it really,  You can do it without having passion for the work. I think you're going to raise eyebrows, you know, just by saying, yeah, I am, I'm a sex therapist.

I'm a sex coach. I'm not even a human sexuality professor. And so, [00:04:00] I mean, so many people that just love what they're doing and they're. They're involved in all kinds of things. And it's really 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: cool. Absolutely. And, and if your heart's not behind it, then I think people should,  consider other options in their life.

If that's not what their passion is driving. 

Tim Norton:Yeah. Yeah. Now, one of the first things I remember hearing from you, we were at a luncheon and you were the first person I ever heard say,  uncooperative penises. And every time I, I repeat that everybody loves it.  did you trademark that you should. And 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: that's really what I think the world should 

Tim Norton:have it.

Okay. He's, he's giving it away.  uncooperative penises is, is, is perfect. Right? Why were, well, you tell us you, why did you come up with that phrase? Why, why not just say ed? Like, like all the 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: commercials, I'll tell you what, you know,  society has sanctioned certain terms that I think can also be problematic for the individual, for people.

 sometimes the, the words that we use and the language that we express doesn't always have empathy or [00:05:00] compassion,  at its core, you know, when you mentioned something like erectile dysfunction, you know, some people will hear that and immediately associated with pain or heartache or,  you know, just a sadness and.

The term dysfunction also really implies that you're not functional. It's kind of this by like bi-modal sort of term that that's suggest that you're broken or that you're not good enough. And I think people are already experiencing enough of that within their own,  self-criticism and their own sort of psyche that we don't need to perpetuate that.

So I've always been encouraging people to use terms like,  erection concerns or sexual difficulties and, and they. Although they have a little more of a neutrality to it, and people can still apply some of their projections of their own sort of insecurities and their own sort of pain.  it still is, is a gentle introduction into, you know, discussing some difficult topics.

And I usually ask people, what are some of the terms that you use, and maybe we can find one together and create our own language with each client.  I'll give you an example, and this is a little off the topic of sexuality, but,  I had a [00:06:00] client who was experiencing,  some, some sexual and relational concerns.

Associated with his difficulty in relationships. He was narcissistic and he had a lot of narcissistic qualities, but he didn't like that term narcissism because it reminded him of his father whom he uses that term.  he directs that term towards, so we developed quirks. So he would talk about his,  his personality.

Quirks is a relationship. Quirks. And we knew what that meant, but in the moment in our sessions, it sort of allowed us to not dwell on some of these,   psychological sort of,  symptoms, if you will, but we can now sort of address maybe the impact or the feelings associated with these quirks. And so that was really helpful to come up with our own language.

Okay. 

Tim Norton:So let's talk about some of these corks. Okay. Maybe not with that client in particular, but just the kinds of quirks that lead to sexual issues, that to uncooperative penises, for example, why does it happen? What are these quarks? 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: Well with uncooperative penises, I think we have to start asking the question.

[00:07:00] Why are we focused and fixated so much on the penis? And I think even if we aren't penis owners, if we're Volvo owners or we have other sort of genitalia,  why are we fixating and felt so focused on that? You know, when I look at my life, I think to myself, the majority of people that I know. Don't ever get to see my penis.

They get to see my heart. They get to see how I express myself, how I interact with them. So there's so much more than meets the eye than just what's underneath the belt or inside of our pants. And I encourage clients to begin to sort of deconstruct this idea that we're putting so much focus. We're putting so much weight and pressure on one piece of the pie in our life.

And there's so much more to the individual or to the relationship than our sexual functioning. So I think we have to deconstruct a bit of that,  that,  Overemphasis, which I think can also create a lot of anxiety and pressure for individuals because they have the bullseye on what is not working.

They put the microscope on their,  on an area of their body or their, of their,  relationship that maybe they're creating more of a monster or catastrophizing [00:08:00] than really what's what's meets the eye. 

Tim Norton: Okay. I like that. And so, but I, I get the feeling that if somebody comes in for treatment, they're going to appreciate that validation then, but then they're going to say.

But I really do want to talk about my penis. 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: Absolutely. So most people will still want to work on that deconstruction and that sort of deemphasis, but still want to work on the, the functioning itself as well.  generally you'll find that,  people will come in if they're having the concerns about their penis and their sexual functioning, it's usually associated with three or four areas that I'm seeing.

 the most common, of course there are other.  areas as well too, that people will, will, will, will present with,  in therapy. But you typically see erection concerns. You typically see early ejaculation, or what's also known as premature ejaculation concerns.  you'll see, delayed ejaculation concerns,  which used to be called retarded ejaculation, which we definitely don't want to use in therapy or even in, in writings and literature.

 and I also see a lot of,  Sexual or performance anxiety. So I feel like the ed, the PE, the D E [00:09:00] and the, I call it PA the performance anxiety, or the essay,  are, are really prevalent. And I, I find those to be sort of like the four pillars of what a lot of men, a lot of penis owners come in for. 

Tim Norton: Okay.

So. Oh, erectile issues.  generally speaking and we're, we're talking about nonmedical, they've already been in the urologist. Urologist is gone over the hormonal and gone over the neurological and gone over the blood flow and everything's good. And they sit and they get a sense from the client in the room.

Hey, you're, you're, you've got some stuff that I'm not really suited to handle. I want you to talk to the sex therapist. And so then they come to you and, and what do they generally present with when it comes to ? 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: Shannon. The first thing I would do would be to congratulate them that they saw a urologist or a medical professional to rule out some of the medical concerns that really as therapist we aren't able to address.

And, and that's, that's a good start.  psychologically speaking, what I find is that for many people,  there are influences and influencers to their anxiety [00:10:00] that typically will perpetuate a lot of these concerns. For example, a family upbringing. Trauma,  their relationship concerns,  mental health concerns, depression, anxiety,  You know,  PTSD, there are so many factors that can be associated with the psychological origins of individuals,  sexual difficulties.

You'll also find too that,  we can characterize difficulties what as if they're lifelong or if they're acquired, meaning some people experience these difficulties throughout the entire course of their life that they experienced from,  either early adolescents or even puberty.  and then you'll find people that will experience these sort of situationally or at certain times of their life.

And so with a number of, of. Clients. I like to do timelines to get a better understanding of when these occur and when they don't occur. Cause what I find is that things like outside work or relationship stress or life stress typically have a very profound impact on our bodies.  what I tell a lot of my penis owner clients,  is [00:11:00] your penis is a thermometer that takes the temperature of your life.

Hmm. And maybe in your life there are stressors or there are problems in your relationship or there's a death in the family, or there's just things going on. And oftentimes our psyche is very much influenced by the outside world, the external factors, the,  the social component. So if we look at sort of the bio-psycho-social model and sort of see our clients through that, if we're addressing the biological with those medical referrals, if we are looking at some of the psychological anxious,  mental health and some of those factors.

 and we're also looking at the social factors. Let's say their environments who they're being exposed to their relationships, their work life. We're going to get a pretty good sense about what are some of the struggles. And sometimes you find with timelines that you can pinpoint when these difficulties started and line them up with certain stressors that they experienced.

And sometimes there's a light bulb that goes off in session like, Oh, it was when I changed jobs that all of a sudden my sexual functioning changed. Oh, my gosh. It was when my father passed away and I realized that maybe there's this underlying [00:12:00] depression. And I didn't realize that that was affecting my sex life.

So it's important for us to just sort of dig. I always find that as therapists, we're like psychological detectives trying to help our clients really discover maybe an unearth, a baby, some unknown or unconscious areas that they're struggling with with anxiety. Hmm. Okay. That's really interesting. 

Tim Norton:So, What about when it does have to do w when we were talking about lifelong or persistent or things that they've been dealing with for a long time.

And what about when it does have to do with something that happened like a, as to them as a, as a kid, and it's particularly hard for the guy to talk about difficult for the guy to talk about,  do they have to talk about it forever? Like how, how do you get through that trauma when it's so influential?

Dr. Hernando Chaves: You know, trauma is something that, especially when we're dealing with it for the first time and facing it,  sometimes you notice that,  it increases the anxiety, it increases sort of the fears and the insecurities and the worries and the pain. So we have to, [00:13:00]  let our clients know that it's going to be a challenging road, but there is going to be, you know, change and improvements down the road.

But it's going to be hard to get to that. Place, there's going to be a difficult journey. I find that if there's a trauma present, I think it's a very valuable and, and ethical for us to look at referrals that might be able to help work with that trauma. So for myself, I don't consider myself a trauma expert, so I will refer to a brainspotting expert or a certified EMDR specialist.

And maybe they're not sexuality. Train necessarily, but they can work with those traumas. And then when they're feeling more sort of,   at ease or equipped with dealing with that traumatic sort of experience and coming to a place of acceptance, or at least working through it and may of management, then I encourage them to seek out the sexual piece because I do find that we can,  the work that we can do sexually can sometimes be very valuable.

Once we start first start working on the trauma piece or the PTSD piece that's present. Okay. Sorry. 

Tim Norton:And I there's, there's shame. There's, there's a lot of shame whether or not there's [00:14:00] trauma or, or not. And sometimes I, I feel like guys are really hesitant to come in. So how do you, how do you make them comfortable talking about something that's particularly uncomfortable?

Dr. Hernando Chaves: Because shame. And because guilt are things that are embedded within us, they're experiences that oftentimes are secretive and we hide from the world and we, we have to develop a safe space in a, in a, in a room that can bridge the gap between fear and trust.  I do find that things like humor self-disclosure, I'm trying to formulate sort of bonds within a relationship that, that are based in empathy or compassion or non-judgemental perspectives can really begin to open the door for that relationship to thrive.

 we do find with research that the most change that happens in therapy for clients, isn't so much about the theoretical orientation or the,  specific sort of a,  A [00:15:00] modality that is being used. It's it's about the relationship you have with that therapist. It typically opens people up to feeling more vulnerable, more honest, more transparent,  that trust.

And I think we can emulate some of the relationships that we're hoping clients will be able to recreate outside of session. For example, a lot of clients will come to me and share some of these. Fears, these insecurities, these concerns, and they have a hard time sharing that with their partner. So sometimes I look at it as I'm your practice, when it comes to expressing sort of deeper, intimate communication, that can be really valuable because you know, communication is lubrication.

It, it will allow your relationship to thrive in ways that you had no idea. You know, when you take a risk and your partner can embrace it and can,  hear you and can offer some empathy and compassion back to you and validate or acknowledged sort of your experience. It feels really good people. Deep end people get closer.

You know, we talk oftentimes in couples therapy about how much people in relationships, how distant people are. You can live in the same house under the same roof. You can be married, you can have all this, [00:16:00]  sort of what, what society perceives in our resume as being very connected, right? But you can feel totally alone or totally isolated.

And so I think that's part of our job is to helping them get that relational comfort to them, begin to bring that into their own life. And, you know, generally when I have an individual client,  I will, at some point want them to either bring in their, their partner or,  maybe even refer them to a couples clinician that can help work sort of in conjunction.

Tim Norton:You, you said communication is lubrication. I love that quote for two reasons. One, that's an amazing quote. And two, I think I can actually put that on Facebook. I don't think they'll sensor that one. I mean, when I, when I boost the post for this interview, so it doesn't have sex in the title, I've been running into it.

Dr. Hernando Chaves: If I could give some credit to that one, a sex educator named Emily Morris uses that line often, and she's a great friend and has a really upbeat and positive,  attitude when it comes to sex and, and intimacy. And. To piggyback that I really believe it how important it is for people to become sexually [00:17:00] educated and challenge our sexual discomfort so that they can really immerse themselves into sex therapy processes,  to become more educated, knowledgeable, and comfortable.

You're going to find that that's going to open the door up to sexual pleasure, sexual sort of connectivity and intimacy to communication and relational intimacy and growth.  so really the more you learn, the better you can apply those learnings to and teachings to your life. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: Communication is lubrication.

So. And you don't get to communicate when you just take a pill.  you know, a lot of the time out in the world I'll meet people and I'll tell them what I do. And they say, well, people just take Viagra for erectile issues.  what do you, what's your stance on that? 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: You know, there's a place for everything.

And I think that, that,  PD five inhibitors and, and,  pills that help enhance sort of, sort of PNL performance,  there is a place for them, me personally, in my practice. I think they're a last resort. I think that people, especially if it's a psychological concern, [00:18:00] we owe it to our clients to help them look at the origins of their problem and not sort of apply only quick fixes and short term solutions that don't necessarily address the issues they're struggling with.

And sometimes even mask the problems if you're having a relationship. Difficulty or if you're struggling with trauma or bereavement or a work stress appeals, not going to remedy that stuff. It's just going to be sort of a way for us to help, you know, cope with it in a, in a way that's not addressing specifically what we're struggling with.

 I do find that people sometimes get reliant on the pills. I do find also too that,  people like their short-term quick fixes.  I also find too that people's anxiety can be so powerful that you can actually overcome the effects of a PD five inhibitor. So you can actually it's like mind over matter.

You can be so anxious or so worried or so sort of depressed or,  struggling that the pill is not going to have an effect and, and what people sometimes miss.  misunderstand what these pills is that they're not intended to create desire. They don't make you horny. They simply open up blood flow. You [00:19:00] know, they, they help with the sort of the nitric oxide sort of a process within the brain to help with the relaxation of the muscles,  so that we can allow blood flow to that region.

But if you're experiencing depression and have low desire taking that pill is not going to make much of a difference for you. Just sort of allowing more blood flow to, to come to that region. But if there's little desire or little interest, It's not going to do very much. So we have to look at a much more than simply popping a pill.

Yeah, 

Tim Norton:definitely. Okay. So you. We talked about it in your bio, you work in the kink community and alternative sex community and so forth. Are there differences in the kinds of clients or the other kinds of erectile issues that in the different populations, are there, 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: you know, with, with all the erotic minorities or sort of the all community clients that I have,  they're going to experience very similar difficulties.

Like,  the rest of the population sometimes they'll call them the vanilla or the non-monogamous folks.  essentially, you know, yeah. We, we all experience as humans, anxiety, or depression at certain times, [00:20:00] or, you know, different sort of challenges with stress and with, with,  our environments and our relationships, what a lot of these erotic minority clients really value is having somebody who understands their lifestyle or their,  sexual expression and somebody who's not going to demonize it or, or going to sort of.

Pull the, put the bullseye on that to say that, well, that's the reason why you're experiencing sadness or depression or relational difficulties. It's because you're kinky or it's because you like to go to Dungeons or you have that fetish.  so generally you'll find that many of the concerns are very similar.

They're just looking for someone who understands their life and their interests. That being said, you'll also find insects therapy.  let's say people who are coming out or people who have their internalized shame that are having difficulty with coming to terms with who they are sexually, maybe their sexual identity has unique orientation aspects.

Maybe their sexual identity has a certain unique gender nonconforming or gender identity aspect. And, and maybe there's a, you know, fantasies that they've never really incorporated into their,   sexual experiences. And so part of their low [00:21:00] arousal or low desire is that okay? I can enjoy my sex life in private or by myself, but I'm afraid to share that with my partner and without that sort of introduction of bringing in our interest into our real life, you're going to find that people might,  you know, their fantasies may,  may be better than the reality.

Hm. When we're 

Tim Norton:talking about anxiety sometimes. People just wanting that validation from a sex therapist and that alone can really reduce some of their anxiety. Do you, do you see like a lot of, it's almost like an identity? 

Dr. Hernando Chaves:  you know, there was, there was a researcher,  an, an academic named Vivian Cass who in the 1970s came up with this identity formation,  stages.

And she had different stages that essentially went from being very unaccepting of the self. Too accepting of the self and sort of that process between identity, formation, identity sort of integration. And I see that a lot in people. And I don't think it's just with people that are gay or people that are kinky or people that are non-monogamous or [00:22:00] queer.

I think that's what a lot of things, I mean, I think there's even an identity formation when it comes to. Being an individual,  going through puberty, being a relational individual, I've noticed an identity sort of formation occur within myself with my own sense of advocacy or a sense of feminism that has really evolved since my earlier days of teenage and young adult years.

So I think there's a lot of that.  That people are going through that growth, that change that realization, that there are things about ourselves that we never really allowed to surface, or we felt shame about anger, about maybe anxiety about,  I do find that some people have internalized anxiety about who they are, especially with their sexual self.

So the internalized homophobic person who might hate themselves, that they're experiencing feelings towards it, the same sex, because maybe their history,  It didn't allow for that. Maybe they had sort of social constructs, like religion or a conservative family,  that created self judgment criticism towards it's the people who are attracted to the same.

And you'll see that internalized transphobia, internalized kink phobia, [00:23:00] internalized non-monogamy phobia. I mean, we sort of apply this to different areas and many people when they can come to terms with who they are. And embrace that, find community, find partners or love,  and find sort of that, that,  strength within who they truly, and really are that authenticity that we often talk about.

You see people thrive, you see people just spread their wings. It's like they've lived their life in a cocoon. And all of a sudden they now are a butterfly. And it's really beautiful when they discover that parts of themselves. But it's a journey and it's not always easy for each person to have that,  to arrive at that destination, with that journey.

Tim Norton:Hm. And you, you lit up, nobody could see this. You lit up, as you were saying that, that sounds like maybe that's one of your favorite parts of this 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: work. Some of my favorite parts are when people are overcoming the obstacles and the,  the, what I call the, the restraints, because I like these bonds terms,  the restraints of, of society and, and social constructs.

And when they can break free from those shackles, you just see them really light up, but I'm just emulating and mirroring what their experiences. [00:24:00] The first time a client visited a sex worker and experienced a,   of sexual behavior they fantasized about and all of a sudden their, their lighting, but they're trying to work through this shame of seeing a sex worker, but, you know, if we can work through that, now they have this leftover sort of residual of that was a really plus full, wonderful experience for me.

And it made me grow and understand myself more,  on a sexual identity,  level. And you'll see this all the time with. Person's first trip to a sex toy,  shop where they're buying their first sex toy, because they're an orgasmic and never experienced an orgasm where you'll see this with that first masturbation or that first time that person,  visits a dungeon and, and has like this,  their first sort of pro Dom session.

It's really amazing to see people have to go through that internal conflict of, yes, I feel some stress and anxiety and shame and, and difficulty with it, but I'm also feeling a lot of this. An incredible release of this pressure and,   you know, restraint that, that I've been experiencing for maybe a lifetime.

Yeah. 

Tim Norton:I think the [00:25:00] sex therapists are her best data or why can't, you know, if it's essentially an anxiety problem, why, you know, most therapists work with anxiety and trauma to some level. So, so why can't we just go to,  a regular old non-sex 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: therapist? I had a new client,  two weeks ago who came in for their first session and they were skeptical.

They were a little bit,  concerned about me and who I am and my perspectives. And so we talked over the phone and, and the things I said, I guess, resonated with them. So they decided to make that first session.  I, I guess I calm some of their fears in that, that first a phone consult. And when they came in, they said, you know, the last therapist I went to.

Because this person identifies as monogamous, but their partner,  was non-monogamous and had other partners and share that, that they do like to have an open relationship, the therapist they said in that first session stated, well, that means that they're cheating on you and, and really sort of placed a judgment on this person who is [00:26:00] trying to be honest, trying to express that they're non-monogamous and.

The, the client didn't like that. I mean, they felt judged. They felt sort of like, how do you make these distinctions about my relationship? You've known me for 15 minutes know for 20 minutes.  and so when she shared that with me, I thought that was really important to note that not all therapists are the same, that,  I'm going to use sort of a, it's going to be a little bit of a.

Controversial way to describe it, but I think there are some wolves in sheep's clothing and people can talk about being open-minded and nonjudgmental, but they may have a lot of judgments and they may have a lot of,  opinions. And even as myself, I, I teach,  MFT students in graduate school. You know, I see that there are a lot of judgments and part of, I think the,  the, the importance of our training and our, just our, our constant sort of growth as therapists, we've got to work on what we have opinions about what we have judgments about and what we have,  discomforts about.

And we have to know sort of our kryptonite, if you will.  I know some of the crypto kryptonite and that's w in my work, so I [00:27:00] oftentimes will refer when there's, you know, challenging cases or things that may be, I F. Realize that I may have some difficulty working with a one for example, is bereavement.

You know, I, I, in my own personal life, you know, death has been something that has been really difficult for me. So I've found that it's really helpful for me to refer to an expert or a specialist in those areas for other people, because I don't want my stuff to ooze into our therapy sessions. That's going to affect the way I help somebody.

 and the same goes with sexuality. You have people who have judgments about homosexuality judgments, about being queer judgments about,  You know,  who's monogamous and who's non-monogamous, I mean, even some of our great sort of therapy leaders like John Gottman, you know, in recent years,  has discussed sort of their positions on porn or their positions on,  uh non-monogamy and there, and it appears Common's very anti those and very sort of judgemental about those, even though a lot of us really value and appreciate his work on communication, for example.

 so we have to, I think be mindful of just how people's perceptions [00:28:00] and their own,   Perspectives and biases come into the room 

Tim Norton:and Dr. Chaves has an AVN shirt on. So I'm going to guess that you're not anti-porn 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: well, if you notice what I'm wearing today, I've got a pride hat. So it's got a rainbow,  sort of supported the LGBT community.

 and I've also got an AVN shirt, which is,  adult video news.  I'm a big proponent of. Gay rights, trans rights, and also sex worker rights. I'm, I'm a advocate of the porn industry, and there's an area where you see a lot of judgment with therapists and just the society in general, with stigma and discrimination and a judgment placed on people who are essentially,  creating sort of a.

Labor practice that we sort of demonize, you know, sex work is work and porn is a way that people make a living and pay for educations and pay for families and pay for their own livelihoods. Yet we love to masturbate to it in private. And then in public, we will either not support it or demonize it. Yeah.

Tim Norton:Tons of hypocrisy, billions of hours of porn [00:29:00] consumed every year.  yet somehow they're all bad. The 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: last week, couple of research studies I read on, on porn consumption,  anywhere from 80 to 90% of men watch porn. And yet how many actually stand up for porn rights or sex worker rights? Well, 

Tim Norton:yeah know the, the heart.

Part about doing porn research is they can never have a control group. There's never any guy. Absolutely. Haven't seen any porn to compare the, the non Watchers 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: to, yeah. You have to keep them in a bubble since, since birth. 

Tim Norton:Yes. So,  you,  you're a sex nerd. You ever, every time I'm talking to you, you, you have some study at hand, you've read your Kenzie.

You, you, you. You get to 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: love this stuff. You know, I love this stuff, but I also,  I enjoy learning about it. And for some reason, this stuff clicks, like when someone talks to me about a PE you know, perform a premature ejaculation I'll bite. Talk about, I dunno, there's eight. There's about a 20%,  likelihood that people experienced that [00:30:00] in the, in the twenties and thirties.

And I'll talk about in their fifties and sixties, it's about 31%. And for some reason, these studies just click and that's from Laumann from 1999.  And I like to have a little bit of backing behind the words that I say or the perspectives I have. It's not always the case. Like for example, there's conflicting, you know, research and values in certain areas, but it really helps.

I think for people to know that there's studies being done and there's a. People that sort of are behind, you know, really understanding and on a deeper,  sort of,  level when it comes to a lot of these sexual concerns.  you know, even when we look at something like in California, we have the prop eight,   court case, which was essentially the California voters initially had voted.

That,  we were not going to legalize gay marriage, and then they went to court and then the California Supreme court,  deemed that unconstitutional and actually reverse that. And a lot of the information that was provided in that propagate court case was research. It was research that said, you know, if you are gay, it doesn't mean that you're going to [00:31:00] pass along being gay to children.

So you can be a teacher. And, and there was all these different evidence. And in research studies are showing about,  you know, two gay parents when they have children let's say adopted or, or,  in creating sort of the families where there.  the, the, the patriarchs and matriarchs,  that are gay,  that they actually had notes changes in the child's mental health,   challenges or difficulties.

And they actually found that they had more egalitarian and more accepting attitudes. So it was actually kind of healthy for them. So all of these different studies were really valuable in, in that court case and really overturning and allowing gay marriage to be something in California that we can all celebrate.

Hmm. I 

Tim Norton:think I'm starting to get a feel for what some of your classes might be like. You're, you're a professor and you're just w what are, what are the college kids like these days learning about sex? Are they, do you feel like they come to the table with a decent amount of information, because there's so much information out there, or do you still get lots of pretty basic questions?

Dr. Hernando Chaves: You know, you still, you still will get the whole spectrum.  so. [00:32:00] A lot of the research. If you look at a website like  dot org,  or you can go to planned Parenthood as well. There's a lot of different,  websites that are promoting information regarding comprehensive sex education. And if you look at what is being taught, there is abstinence only sex education.

There's comprehensive sex education. And then there's no sex education. And typically you find in America about a third of each being practiced in different schools. A lot of it has to do with the, the subculture. So in the Bible belt, and then in the South, you have a lot less,  sex education, or if there is sex ed, it's an abstinence focused, which is faith-based.

And typically utilizing, just say no and fear based tactics in order to educate and teach.  they'll do things like,  showcase, you know, big pictures of STI and say, if you have sex, you're gonna, this is what's gonna happen. Get, and, or,  using religiosity, like if you have premarital sex, you're going to go to hell and creating sort of dog line.

And, and in that sense, but we know that that doesn't educate people. We know that that [00:33:00] doesn't stick or linger. It just creates fear and they're still going to be sexual. So you can be afraid and knowledgeable being, having sex. What I see in my classes is that,  you're seeing a little bit more. Comfort when it comes to gender identity and orientation in the younger generation.

So they're a little more, you know, with social media and with some of the progressive movements, I think they're getting a little more comfortable with that notion and that flexibility and fluidity with sexuality.  you're still seeing things like,   a lack of understanding about anatomy, about contraception, about how to get pregnant,  or how to prevent pregnancy.

Most people at that age are not looking to, to, to have babies are looking to try to protect themselves from it. But,  without that knowledge, they're still escalating STI rates. I mean, I think in the last year we had some of the highest rates we've ever had here in America, and that is associated with decreased funding with comprehensive sex ed and decreased funding with a lot of these harm reduction,  STI and contraception services that are out there.

And, you know, your votes really matter. The politicians that you vote [00:34:00] for. Whether you realize it or not are picking Supreme court judges, they are,  putting forth,  legislation that removes money for sex education. That room was money from mental health services. It can remove money from,  you know, supporting our troops and, and, you know,  offering sort of money to the VA.

So it's really important for us to know what we're voting for and know the people, what they stand for and represent. Okay. Right on. 

Tim Norton:So. Let's let's get back to penises a minute ago. You talked about PE and you, you said by over a quarter of man, did you say in their twenties at 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: some point it's usually around 30%.

I mean, that's kind of a number that I'll just generally express and it's consistent across time, like in your twenties and in your fifties. Typically men will, will consistently have a similar experience. Whereas ed will oftentimes increase over time because of there's a physiological component as well.

So with ed, you might find at age 40, about 40% of men are experiencing ed at age 50, about 50%. So it's kind of lined [00:35:00] up,  with our ages. Okay. 

Tim Norton:So specifically with PE I think what is the DSM say? Like under a minute? Are you you, what do you, how do, well, how do you talk about it with a client? Like, 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: how do you.

I do my best to keep the DSM out of it.  just because it can be a little bit technical and sometimes if they're high, high, anxious, highly anxious clients,  they're going to be really fixated on like, what are the terms? What are the diagnoses? Do I fit the criteria? So I like to kind of create a little bit of a definition together.

 but you're right. The DSM will say within one minute,  but some people experience, you know,  what they perceive is. PE and they, and when I asked them, how long do you have sex? They'll typically report like three minutes, five minutes, seven minutes, or, or they didn't incorporate the foreplay. And, and so they have this sometimes an assumption that,  the way that their beat their functioning is actually inadequate.

And you know, that part of my job is to offer some sex ed, but also to validate that, you know, Research shows that,  for heterosexual couples, the [00:36:00] average intercourse time is about two to seven minutes. And you just reported that your intercourse was about three to four minutes. So you're actually right in the middle of like what most people experience.

And sometimes that's like a light bulb moment to say, give yourself a break. Yeah.  there are people now let's be realistic that. Baby ejaculate before they even have their pants off or before they even get their underwear off. So there are some people that have incredibly sensitive, tactile responses to arousal, to sensation to their own sort of fantasies and thoughts.

 and then in those instances, we oftentimes find,  a strong, anxious,  Predisposition. So anxiety across the board in life with work with themselves internally, but also with relationships and being sexual. So I find it very important for us to do a lot of anxiety reduction mechanisms, do a lot of cognitive behavioral work,   addressing things like cognitive distortions thought, stopping,  automatic thought records.

 Incorporating postmodern techniques, like beditation deep breathing, slowing things down. Maybe we'll incorporate some behavioral methods like [00:37:00] Kegel exercises or masturbation peaking exercises to help sort of stretch out and elongate sort of the time between arousal and orgasm.  you know, everybody's gonna have sort of a different.

A treatment plan, if you will.  and I'm not even addressing yet the relational stressors, the work stressors, the life stressors, the anxiety in the world around us.  so each person I think, is going to have their own sort of origins, but also their own sort of ways that they can begin to work on this and try to create a little bit of satisfaction and, and empowerment and agency in their sex life.

Hmm. So 

Tim Norton:you, in a very brief 10, second period, you mentioned a lot of really helpful things. Yeah. What do you suppose helps the most between the CBT stuff, the thought stopping the cognitive distortions or the, the modern stuff, the breathing and the meditation and that kind of stuff. Where, where, where do you really see guys responding?

Dr. Hernando Chaves: Well, you know, there's a mind, body experience, and I think we have to look at it from both perspectives.  What I just did, right. There [00:38:00] was sort of throwing everything in the kitchen sink.  and in a session I would never express all of that, but,  you know, Gradually, if, if, if there's a course of treatment, that's going to be for a few months or hopefully more of if they, they, if they,  dedicate themselves to this, this change in this improvement that you interrogate this and you build upon each sort of successive week of homework assignments, I find that it's very valuable.

The behavioral exercises.  so I really encouraged the Kegel work and I also encourage the, the peaking masturbation exercises and incorporating things like the classic start-stop method in the classic,   squeeze method. Those have shown to have some, some very solid results, you know, from traditional search studies, from masters and Johnson's to more recent research, anywhere from 90 to 61%, I've seen with different research,  for those behavioral methods.

But that doesn't always mean that, you know, we still aren't anxious or worried.  I think it's very important for us to. Sort of help the person with the cognitive,   fears and insecurities and, and, and the way that our mind starts to race and the [00:39:00] thoughts that we have that could be rational or irrational.

So I love to do a lot of,  empowerment with,  with learning about cognitive distortions, learning about negative feedback cycles, where your thoughts and your catastrophization actually magnify the intensity of this, the, of the problem, the situation.  so I do believe that it's really important for us to highlight our patterns and our, and our dynamics when it comes to our thoughts and how they work against us.

 and of course,  I really believe that the future of sex therapy is incorporating mindfulness and breathing exercises that the people that are doing like calm and the Headspace or imagery exercises, or doing their own deep breathing work, you are finding such a powerful change in the brain. That is sort of going to the core of where a lot of our anxiety and depression and mental health struggles lie,  the affect regulation, the relaxation of the amygdala, the changes in the brain that we see with breathing,  is something that, you know, talk therapy doesn't always address or at least target.

Okay. 

Tim Norton:So [00:40:00] you said cognitive distortions, and so we're talking about. PE right now. And so what might a,   an example of a cognitive distortion and be in a, in a typical, highly anxious PE client, what the heck is a cognitive distortion? 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: Sure. It's, it's sort of our mind playing tricks on us and the way that we think can sometimes affect the lenses that we see the world.

Through and our experience through. And so we have to adjust the filters in our life in order for us to see things a lot more realistically and clearly,  let's say for a person who's experiencing, let's say early ejaculation, it's very possible. They may have like an anticipatory sort of anxiety that any situation that may become sexual, or they may become close to somebody, they may have a predisposition to do something called.

Catastrophization where they're going to magnify the moment and believe in their hearts, that things are going to go wrong because the previous experiences in the past, they felt haven't gone the way that they'd like it. So we are creating this self fulfilling prophecy in our minds of saying, I feel [00:41:00] like I failed before, so I will fail again right now.

And therefore I will fail. And so we have to try to break some of those cycles of creating catastrophes. When in fact we can learn skills, you know,  sexual skills,  to. Slow down to incorporate foreplay to,  again, stretch out the plateaus,   in our sexual response cycle. So we can elongate the time, you know, that we Jacqueline have orgasm.

 for a lot of people it's really about,  quieting sort of the irrational thoughts in the mind. And that's what cognitive distortions really do is they create a lot of irrationality within the self. 

Tim Norton:And you also mentioned Peking. Exercises 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: what's that a peaking exercise or our classic masters and Johnson's technique.

 An individual can do this by themselves and they can do this with a partner. And it's a part of what we called it. It's part of the protocol that we call sensei focus. So I'm going to briefly talk about that first and then I'll get into Peking sensei. Focus is essentially an anxiety reduction,  protocol.

Call [00:42:00] that creates kind of a baby step,  experience for individuals to,  gently experience more and more anxiety in a reasonable and manageable way. And they stay in this place of, of anxiety until they sort of overcome or master that anxiety and they move forward. And, and I'll give you a quick little example of a systematic desensitization process.

A person may have difficulty with. Touch. And that may come before being sexual. So we may work with a hand massage exercise until they get comfortable with that. And then they move towards maybe a full,  of massage with their clothes on and that exercise,  until they can master that anxiety. And then they may want to maybe a massage with, with maybe their underwear on.

And when they master that, they might move towards a partner exercise where they might have a, take a shower together and be new together. And so we start working. These baby steps to sort of more and more levels of,  physical and sexual intimacy and people will make a hierarchy of fears in order to address what are the things that create most anxiety for them.

And then you work with their hierarchy now. [00:43:00] Peaking exercises can be part of that process. It's an exercise where an individual can touch themselves and masturbate,  to where they get to the point of no return to right when they're about to ejaculate and they're going to stop,  typically people will do a squeeze with the Kegel exercise.

 some people will actually even do the squeeze method, which is,  taking your two fingers and applying pressure on the frenulum. And the top of the head of the penis and just applying this a short squeeze and what we're doing is trying to teach the body to manage high levels of sensory experience and sensation in the body and in the penis.

 and so when you do that three or four times, you sort of,  go to, let's say if we use the zero to 10 method and 10 is orgasm trying to get to about an eight or a nine, right before orgasm, then stopping, allowing yourself to return back to maybe a six or a five.  not to lose the full erection, but to then sort of,  diminish the sensory experience.

And then you masturbate and touch yourself all the way back up to that. Eight or nine, close to a 10, that point of no return. And then we do this [00:44:00] about three, four or five times, and then the person can ejaculate over the course of weeks and weeks and months, you'll find that people will have better management and better at what we call ejaculate, Tory control.

So these peeking exercises are very classic. They're very effective and they're fun. You get to masturbate while you're doing your, so what a fun homework 

Tim Norton:assignment. So, yeah. We,  also earlier in the interview, we talked about delayed ejaculation.  this, that just the opposite. It sounds like obviously there there'd be much different homework assignments for 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: something like that.

Culation what I've experienced. And what I've also read about,  with the experiences of the clients is that it's also still a very.  it's a, it's a sexual concern. That's still tied to anxiety. And for a lot of people, it's about difficulty letting loose. It's about,  sort of,  allowing anxiety to,  reduce our sensation or to, you know, some people will try to divert away from pleasure in order to last longer.

So sometimes they start to learn to last longer,  uncontrollably.  generally what you'll find too is that there could be [00:45:00] associated mental health concerns. There could be.  like a depression or a low desire concern that may not be addressed. So being sexual might not be that enjoyable or pleasurable or exciting.

And so it creates a long lasting experience that can be,   challenging now with the anxiety piece.  many times it's about the performance as well or sexual anxiety. So we have to look at what is the, the anxious origins,  what I have found too, as well as that there are certain things that can be very beneficial for delayed ejaculation.

For example, I'm using this, let's say,   certain products that can actually enhance the sexual experience. Some people that have delayed ejaculation,  could enjoy their sexual experiences more if they had some more of that sensory stimulation.  I've seen both with erection difficulty and also delayed ejaculation,  prostate play in the insertion of a prostate toy, actually having wonderful effects on people's erections and also people's sort of pleasure.

And so that can oftentimes facilitate a. Quicker orgasm and also a stronger erection.  I've also found too [00:46:00] that,  incorporating more of their fantasies as well, too. Cause a lot of times with delayed ejaculation, the, the anxiety of sharing, who they really are sexually their authentic sort of sexual.

Desires is scary. And many times you'll see things like,  desire to wanna incorporate kink or incorporate fetish or incorporate something that maybe they masturbate to a, with porn, but they don't necessarily bring it to the bedroom. And so there is going to be a need for us to address why they're afraid to share that.

And also. If you were able to, to address it and, and, and share with a partner, could you then sort of begin to enjoy the process more? Now, there are going to be some medical concerns as well, too. So it's important for us to have a medical,  clinician as well associated with, you know, seeing if there are any,  brain issues, any,  neurological components, any sensory components.

 they do have tests that can actually,  With heat and with cold, they can test the sensory experience of a, of a penis. But,  it's important for us to get inside of people's heads as to why they're,  they're not really fully immersing themselves. Why are you [00:47:00] holding back? Is it a trauma? Is it a fear?

Is it an insecurity? So there's a lot to explore as well with delayed ejaculation. And 

Tim Norton:so, you know, I think sometimes people. I really don't understand why that would be a problem. Like, Hey, this guy, this guy can fuck forever.  so what do they tell you? Like, what's the,  why do they come in? If, if that's their, their only 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: issue, you know, In society, we have sort of a put on a pedestal, this idea of long-lasting, maybe we see it in porn.

We see somebody lasting 20, 30, 40 minutes in a video. And we think that that's the way that we're supposed to behave or, or, or be sexual. When in fact, when you look at a research,  most partners don't want to have sex that long that you find that,  although that.  the orgasm gap may be a little bit,   longer with women versus men.

If we're talking about sort of the, the, the, the binary gendered model,  you still will find that if a person lasts too long that,  female [00:48:00] partners, for example, for talking heterosexually will complain about dyspareunia, painful sex, maybe,  lubrication sort of diminishes, and that can also be abrasive.

 you may find that if they have an orgasm,  That that may,   you know, after that sort of can be very sensitive and almost painful as well.  you'll find too that it can create, you know, when people stop,  it can create sort of our own self-criticism and self-doubt with ourselves because we're not able to, you know, we we've attached a lot of, of expectation to sex with orgasm means.

Good sex. And for a lot of people, they want to orgasm. So they're putting more and more pressure on themselves to have that orgasm. So this comes back to that,  deconstructing sort of the expectations we have, but also getting to know our bodies. You know, a lot of people don't talk about your body and my body and how we can work together to,  work through, you know, through a concern.

For example, if.  let's say we're having a hetero couple and a male takes 20 minutes of intercourse to ejaculate and their female partner may be orgasms in, [00:49:00] you know, eight minutes.  that means there's like a 12 minutes sort of difference. And I know I'm being very systematic here, but it's sort of an example.

Could they engage in other behaviors that can help. Maybe a,  move his sexual response along so that he might be more in line with her sort of experience, you know, could it be that he masturbates, you know, to start off their sexual sessions, maybe there's an incorporation of oral sex.  maybe it's the transition from,  him touching himself and, and stroking his penis and then going to oral sex on her, on her vulva.

And that sort of pushes him back closer to that 20 minutes. Maybe it's about reconfiguring. Their sexual script, maybe it's about the different positions they're in certain positions can facilitate more,  orgasm or,  or delay the orgasm. You know, some positions, like for example, the premature ejaculating who's in missionary will create more,  muscular tension in their body.

Because they're going to be holding up their bodies.  so it might facilitate a faster orgasm. Typically you find that the, with orgasm, it's the release of muscular tension in rhythmic contractions.  [00:50:00] so if you're building up tension, it might make you come quicker. So if you are more relaxed in a side to side or in a laying down bottom position that might facilitate you to,  lasting longer.

So we have to sort of be mindful of our bodies and, and the communication of how we can work together and sort of mesh our bodies together. Hmm. Hm. 

Tim Norton:Yeah. I love all of those points. That's really invaluable information for everybody out there.  we keep mentioning partners. Could you speak to partners?

Any of them have a person with delayed ejaculation or early ejaculation Mo how can they help or how can they not make it worse or what should they not say or say? 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: I think that's a great question. Cause sometimes,  the people that are. Around some of these concerns, the relationship itself isn't always brought into the room.

 just like we've talked about those who let's say are caretaking for someone who may have cancer. And we sometimes forget that the part, those partners are also experiencing their own challenges. So are those that are experiencing,  partners with their own sexual concerns? I do think it's important for us to not.

[00:51:00] Put the bullseye on one individual and say that this is your problem. And it's not, it's, it's a relational component because we work together in relationships to help each other. It's a mutually sort of beneficial, supportive environment that a true sort of healthy relationship,  evokes. So I think important if we can, if they have a partner to incorporate them into that,  the, the treatment process,  to do a couple of things, one encouraged them to be,  Compassionate, you know, sometimes people, if they're not getting what they want sexually can be a little bit harsh.

They can criticize, they can make,  contemptuous comments or snide remarks or, you know, nonverbal gestures. And, and it may be just our natural reaction of emoting our frustration. But we have to be mindful that to be supportive means that we have to sometimes acknowledge that there are times that we,  maybe contribute to the, to the challenges.

So. A partner that can listen a partner that can communicate a partner that can be supportive, a partner that can maybe participate in some of these exercises, [00:52:00] a partner who may be able to lighten the load, maybe using things like,  You know, helping their partner to challenge maybe some of the cognitive distortions or to sort of create a less anxious environment can be really valuable.

And those partners also need to take care of themselves. You know, we talk about self care with just about all of our clients, but especially those that are in a supportive role, they need to have their self-care and their time for themselves too. And for example,  if there is a sexual concern, let's say there's an erection difficulty, or an early ejaculation difficulty with a partner, you know, It's important for us to also acknowledge that that other partner may have their own sexual frustrations and we should encourage them to masturbate, to be, you know, to, to offer,  pleasure whether it's through oral or it's through sir touch or sex toys.

 we have to also remember that they're also struggling too, and that's not always,  we're not always sort of on that radar.  

Tim Norton:you keep talking about. The,  the different things that guys can do and different things, things that partners can do, people with penises [00:53:00] can do.  where does porn fit into all of this?

Do you ever tell guys not to watch porn while working on an issue or any of the above mentioned or, or to watch more porn? Or how does that work into your day? Typical treatment, 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: depending on the issue. Yeah. That comes into the office. I may have a different perspective of how I want to utilize porn in their treatment.

Most people, you know, if we know that about 80 to 99% of men are watching porn,  let's just be real. Most people are, and, and very few are actually having difficulties or problems with it. One thing I may see is that,  there is a comparison effect that some people will engage in where their, their masturbatory porn sort of experience is different than are there.

 the realism of their, let's say sexual relationships in real life. And so sometimes we're attaching a lot of our heightened arousal and our true sort of authentic sexuality to that more secretive porn,  masturbation expression. [00:54:00] So I think it's important to incorporate more of that into the couples,  experience,  there's research that suggest that when couples.

Viewpoint together and also are supportive of each other's master Victorian porn use that they actually have typically more communicative and more intimate relationships and more,  openness when it comes to their sexual behaviors. Whereas if there's a hidden nature of porn, that in itself can be sort of problematic because I think that can pull people away from coming together and sort of sharing intimacy rather than experiencing it separately in a way from our partners.

 there are sometimes people that I encourage to, you know, if you're.  trying to explore different things that might be arousing. Sometimes it's helpful to find different arenas of porn to explore if that's something that you're interested in. So I think also if people are working on body images, some people,  don't see themselves as, as attractive or rousing or sexual.

And sometimes seeing people with, with similar body types and similar sort of looks can be really empowering and that can be done through watching porn. [00:55:00]  you know, Occasionally you'll have people where they're watching so much porn that it becomes problematic. And I think it's important for us to maybe set some boundaries around that and yeah.

And create,  a little bit more of a, an awareness of how it's impacting their life. If they're, if they're having legal trouble with a relational difficulties work challenges with, because of their porn use, you know, we definitely want to,  be mindful of how we can sort of in a harm reduction method, not remove it completely, but do it in a way that it's more of a reward.

Or celebrating pleasure rather than detracting from us, you know, taking care of a lot of our activities, activities of daily living. 

Tim Norton:Okay. Very well said.  I think that's, that's about all I have for today. Were there, was there anything else, I mean, you you've done so much, you get involved in so many different things.

 Anything else you want to talk about? Or where do you see yourself in 10 years? Like we're we're what are your, what do you want to see happen with sexuality and in the world? And with this 

Dr. Hernando Chaves: country? [00:56:00] My hope is that in 10 years, people will be more open to sexuality in a less stigmatized and more sort of open framework within the world.

You know, we're in a time right now where our president is,  you know, We're talking about our president having sex with a porn star. We're talking about people in the, in the military,  transgender individuals, having a space and a place, you know, to, to fight for our country. You know, we're looking at the need for us to create.

D data backed evidence-based researched programs for sexual education with our children and having that incorporated. I think that we can look to other countries as models as well. You know, there's some great,  sex education in places like Sweden and the Netherlands and Germany. And I would love to see some of that sort of coming our way.

I know there's a lot of. Pushback. And there's a lot of fear around sexuality. So with our conservative sort of perspectives and also the [00:57:00] religiosity that's tied to it. And, and some of the,  the fears around sex, I think it will be challenging, but I'm up for the fight. I love advocacy work and, you know, little by little, we'll see some positive changes and, and it's a pendulum.

It swings back and forth. You'll see. Progressive liberal openness and some, some positive changes. And then you'll see things sort of swing back because of the backlash and vice versa. So I'm just hoping that we become more and more,  open with our discussions, especially within relationships and with individuals.

I mean, here we are,  talking about couples and relationships and we're seeing,  more books coming out. We're seeing more TV shows around sexuality, more movies that are covering this,  these topics. I'm just hoping people will. Stop being so uncomfortable and judgmental around something that is so natural.

Yeah, me 

Tim Norton:too. And then,  we'll have to find other jobs that would that be a nice problem to have? Okay. Well, thank you so much for, for this. This is great.  and,  keep having hard conversations out there, guys. 

[00:58:00] Dr. Hernando Chaves: Thank you so much for having me.

Tim Norton:Thanks to the show's executive producer, Robin Morrison. Thanks to Kat Murphy, director of social media. Thanks to Tim scrub for the music. Thanks to the sound editor there. Robbie Carmen, thanks to Brian. We for naming the show. Thanks to Alex PIDs for the intro. Thanks to Arlina sushi on Logan, you can find this podcast at hard conversations, podcast.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can locate me on Twitter at Tim Norton LCSW or on my website for my private practice, Tim Norton therapy.com. You can also email us@hardconversationspodcastatgmail.com. Or calling to our hotline at (662) 626-4276 that's six six two, man. Hard, thanks to all my friends and family for brainstorming this show with me.

Shout outs to the sex positive community, including sex educators, sex [00:59:00] therapists, sex coaches, and other fellow sexual podcasters, sex, surrogates, academics, sexual health, medical community, sex workers, the tantric community, and everybody else involved with having hard conversations.