TODAY'S GUEST: Giselle Jones, mindfulness, erectile dysfunction, and sexuality expert, and online sex therapist

I'm extremely happy to welcome Giselle Jones to Hard Conversations!

Giselle Jones, LCSW, is a sex therapist in private practice, certified yoga instructor, certified mindfulness facilitator who studied at the Mindful Awareness Research Center at UCLA. She is Canadian born of Jamaican immigrants, did her Bachelors work at the University of Western Ontario. She is a former actor and educator, and the first Director of Education for GET LIT Words Ignite Youth Literacy Program.

• WEBSITE:

  https://www.gisellejones.com

• https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/giselle-l-jones-los-angeles-ca/280916

YOU'LL LEARN

• Why it’s often better to work on sexual issues in couple’s therapy

• The importance of desire and arousal during sex

• The way eroticism is portrayed in movies in porn in novels is not in fact healthy, integrated eroticism

• The detriments of sexual shame

• Practical tips you can try at home

• The upside and downside of Viagra

• Insights on sexuality

• Differences between how erectile issues affect men and women

• The benefits of online sex therapy

• And more!

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING to my male sexuality and sex therapy podcast!

To get more hard conversations sent directly to your device as episodes become available, you can subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher!

Also, reviews on iTunes are extremely helpful and greatly appreciated! I read each and every one of them, and feel free to share your URL there so I can contact you later on and say thanks!

And lastly, if you have any questions (or would like answers to previously submitted voicemail questions!), head on over to Tim’s website.

About the Show

Introducing Hard Conversations, a podcast about male sexuality, and all things erectile, from the latest natural erectile dysfunction treatment to the best ed medical treatment. Therapist Tim Norton expands the conversation about male sexuality, adds context to why we struggle as a society to have hard conversations and breaks down how in a sex-positive environment there really is no room for taboos, judgment, or shame when it comes to penises.

YOUR online sex therapy and couple’s therapy HOST:

Tim Norton is a sex positive sex therapist working in private practice. He offers online therapy, online sex therapy, online sex coaching, and therapy and coaching for somatic symptom disorder.

Tim obtained his bachelor’s and master’s degrees from the University of Southern California. Tim is a proud member of American Association of Sex Counselors, Educators, and Therapists (AASECT), the Los Angeles Sexological Association, and works part-time with the Pain Psychology Center in Beverly Hills.

Hard Conversations podcast transcription

Tim Norton: Hello, and welcome to hard conversations. Very excited today for my first guest. Jazelle Jones, Canadian born of Jamaican immigrants. Did her undergrad work at the university of Western Ontario. She's a former actor and educator first director of education for get lit words, ignite youth literacy program.

She's an LCSW certified yoga instructor, certified sex addiction therapist, candidate, and certified [00:01:00] mindfulness facilitator.  through the Marc awareness research center outside via UCLA inside of UCLA. Did I get all of that? Yeah, that's pretty good. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Giselle Jones: Hi, nice to be here. 

Tim Norton: Yeah. So erectile disorder or erectile issues, erectile dysfunction. How do you feel about the name of erectile dysfunction? 

Giselle Jones:  It's it's the, the biggest umbrella. I think we have for, but it is a little shaming. I would, I would think for most people experiencing it.  but that's, that's what we use.

That's why I like just saying ed, once we get around what it means, but yes. Yeah. Erectile issues, I think is a much more pleasant and inclusive. 

Tim Norton: Right. I th I think it changes. Cause we used to say impotence. Yeah, back in the day. That sounds awful. So I'm [00:02:00] sure it'll be something different in a few years. So client calls, you sets up an appointment comes in.

What are the first steps? What what's, what happens in the beginning of the 

Giselle Jones: session? Well, one of the first things I would do is actually just find out what's going on because. There may not be as much of a problem as they think there is.  and there might have be in the range of normal functioning and not even know it,  because they may be, they're just exposed to porn or maybe they're exposed to other media and it's, they don't realize that they're actually fine, but I would, I would have them, if there seems to be an actual issue, I would have them check in with their doctor or their urologist first to rule out. And maybe even before coming in, but certainly after the first session to just rule out any medical, any physiological issues first, because then we know what we're dealing with and I can help them.

And I don't know if we mentioned, I work in private practice here in Los Angeles [00:03:00] as a psychotherapist. And I F I do all sorts of issues, but I do focus on sexual issues for both men, women, and couples. And so that's. One of the, one of the things I come across frequently is someone coming in for this, or even coming in as a couple, they often come in for a couple, if there's an erectile dysfunction issue.

Good. Yeah. Yeah. Some of the things I just wanted to say that they might want to rule out, going to a doctor could be. Anything from hypertension.  the hypertension itself can lead to arterial hardening or,  the blood pressure medication, any beta blocker medication, which would be usually something that would be given for blood pressure.

They can, that can impede performance as well.  what else? Any artery hardening at all, a theory or sclerosis that can decrease the blood supply, going to the penis. And that's, you know, an obviously a functional issue that you need to deal with first, before coming in for therapy [00:04:00] on it.  also what's really important to note and not a lot of people know is,  diabetics can often have this as one of the early signs of diabetes and,  because of hardening veins and.

 nerve,  neuropathy, when extremities start to kind of go numb that can include things like penile functioning. So it's often times that people will go in to get this checked out and you can go to your MD or even better urologist. And this is the first diagnosis they might have for something like.

Like hypertension or diabetes. So it's important to, to check it out first with a doctor for many, many reasons. And,  one of the other things that it could be that could be a medical issue is his physical trauma to the penis, which is not actually as, as common as people think it's, and it's not usually [00:05:00] sex related or from, you know, Getting hit in the groin.

It's actually from, it can be, it can be, I shouldn't say that, but it's more likely even though nerve trauma to the penis is, is, is rare for,  to be the reason for, for erectile dysfunction. But it could be something like cyclists, like that would be more likely than, than another kind of physical trauma, like cycling and perinatal damage from, from just riding a bike.

Okay. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: Okay. So rule all that out. Okay. I'm filling all that out, rule all that out. And if they say, Oh, I haven't done that yet. You'll get through the first session, but say, okay, you still should go see your doctor.  and, and I think,  I guess I'll put this in the beginning, but,  I should have said like how we know each other, like, so she works at the marks center.

[00:06:00] UCLA. What is the actual name of 

Giselle Jones: it? The Mark. Oh, that's where I was certified for my mindfulness,  teaching mindfulness, facilitation, Mark 

Tim Norton: MIRC. Yeah. And Jazelle. And I know each other, cause we're both sex therapists and I think we met at a training. Yeah, right at the center for healthy sex. 

Giselle Jones: And that's where I was working at the time as well for about two 

Tim Norton: years.

Yeah. We both have private practices.  in Los Angeles, you, you have an office in silver Lake. Yeah. As do I. And so, okay. So they rule everything out and then they actually have been to their urologist. And they're saying, look, you've got erections in the morning. And you sometimes get them throughout the day.

You're just not getting them during sex. So go back to your sex therapist and work on this. So, so where do you start after that? I know you're a big fan of mindfulness. So do you, do you introduce that really early on in the 

Giselle Jones: work? I will not introduce it right [00:07:00] away. I just want to start by saying for anyone that, that doesn't know, which could be a great deal of people, even though there's a lot of buzz around mindfulness right now.

 just what it is, mindfulness is. Yeah. It's a simple concept, but more difficult to implement sometimes then than you think it's a deliberate paying attention to the present moment or deliberate immersion in the present moment with non-judgment, which I think is kind of a tall order. So let's just say with as little judgment as possible,  and.

I like to add with, with self-compassion. So just what you just took a sip of water, for example. So be having a really mindful moment would be feeling the glass in your hand, the coolness of it, the weight of it. As you lifted up to your lips, the anticipation in your mouth, what happens? Do you salivate as you're ready to put it on your, on your mouth and then what is it like when it first hits your mouth, your throat, your belly?

 what's it like to put it back down? All of those [00:08:00] are kind of. Radically putting ourselves in the present moment. And what mindfulness is is good for is, you know, it's, it's, there's a lot of correlated. Yeah. Studies right now that say the more that we pay attention to the present moment, the less we're kind of perseverating about the past, even though we need to pay attention to the past to learn things.

But when we get stuck in the past, we can tend towards some more. Depressive symptoms sometimes or feelings. And if we kind of get future tripping too much, we can come to get a little more anxious. So there, we're just saying that when you spend as much time as possible in the present moment, it can actually just enhance your wellbeing as well as deal with much larger issues like depression, anxiety,  stress trauma.

And I think in my opinion, that. Erectile dysfunction, ed erectile issues [00:09:00] can be largely, largely linked to anxiety, particularly,  but certainly trauma as well, a lot of things. So to, to heighten that strength to get your body and your mind in the present moment can be a great thing.  But to answer your question.

No, I do not introduce it immediately. I might let them know what it is and that it's something that I'd like us to explore depending on how they might have a practice already. I mean, these are ancient practices that go, go back centuries, at least as far as the far East. And so they may have a practice already and be keen and open to it.

And maybe I will launch in and just do. Sitting breathing meditation or something like that, but more than, than not the first session, I'll be looking into what their concept of, of the problem is. And again, maybe there's a level of functioning that, that the person might. I think it's a problem when it might not be as big a problem as they, as they think it is, but it's [00:10:00] how they view it.

And 

Tim Norton: you might be saying, so by level of functioning, you mean that they get erections nine times out of 10 and then they're really harping on the 10th time or? Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. 

Giselle Jones: Yeah. But, you know, it's still a problem for them, so there's always chance to enhance performance, but it might not be as devastatingly out of the norm as they think.

I think it is right. 

Tim Norton: It can be really nice to hear, Hey, you're fine. Penises. Aren't supposed to. Work 100% of the times written not even work is the wrong word, but it's not like I was just reading this chapter in a book and they were talking about how it has to be a hard erection on demand as if males are designed to just being like at the drop of a hat and.

They have to be turned on. They have to be in the mood. They can't be, like you said, mindful, they can't be [00:11:00] stressed about the past, about their Workday, about their career. 

Giselle Jones: So exactly. And we spend a lot of time.  I still not enough, but a lot of time focusing on the issues around the psychological issues around and emotional issues around female,  desire and performance, if you want to call it that, but.

Not as much on the male performance, there is that cultural assumption that men do perform on demand. And we have to have a lot of compassion for that. That's a lot of pressure. And like you said, if there's other things going on that are affecting stress levels or even self-esteem, that can play a huge part.

And,  of course there are things as we get older as well,  But before you're running for, for the meds, I think it's a good thing to explore. Like just reevaluating your relationship with your body and mind.  so first session to get back to that, I would probably be [00:12:00] evaluated then one with their, their view of the issue is, but also what their history is there, their sexual history, but also their family, family history,  their experiential history.

So. What just emotionally, even, and what the role was in the family. And sometimes people,  men are not expecting such a traditional approach to the therapy. They just want like, okay, what are the exercises I need to do? And you know, or the pill I need to take or what what's, how can I just. Get rid of this or fix this, and they're not as willing to look into these things.

And so sometimes I have to normalize that part of the process as well, and talk about how that can be related because that can be often confusing.  cause they're like I came to a sex therapist. I would have just come to a regular therapist as like, well, surprise and we're still therapists, therapists, or just [00:13:00] therapists that are willing and able to talk.

About and explore and focus at least partially on, on sexuality, because not everyone is comfortable with that, but it is, you know, we still endorse the psychological process because that's. It's it's critical to some of this. So going through, you know, what the family was like, how I guess affection was expressed in the family.

 praise, success.  what was your role? Like? Are you the favored one? Were you the acting out child? Were you the silent one?  but certainly what were the conversations around sex and sexuality if they existed or didn't in the household? What was it like when you, if you were discovered masturbating by a parent, how was it treated?

 or were they the ones that encouraged you to do it?  yeah, first, first experiences dating and sexually and. Even presets sexual [00:14:00] activity and romantic activity, and just looking for anything that seems to be charged for them and to bring, or maybe they, they downplay it, but you're, you're like really, that seems like a pretty shaming experience.

It was no big deal for you. And just to see where they might have been, you know, caught up. 

Tim Norton: Yeah. But so when a guy is concerned about. Okay. Is there something wrong with me, right. I, why can't I adjust? Take Viagra and sail off into the sunset. Like why it's hard to talk about those things. Like why, why do I want to go and talk about,  what happened to me when I was 16 or six?

 why? 

Giselle Jones: Yeah, exactly. And, and why do I want to talk about these things and why do I want to talk about these things with a woman? Sometimes they'll come in and just say, okay, this person's going to give me a, B and C, but why am I getting this exposed?  it, it. It can be uncomfortable. I've definitely had clients [00:15:00] not be able to handle it,  especially early on in the process and just feel uncomfortable.

I completely honor that and can, you know, refer them to people such as yourself that that might be it. That might be,  it might be more aligned with,  or feel like they could be so, but why talk about it?  silence, as you know, can be. Just a great predator of so many dysfunctions in our life. And,  the unspoken can, it lives in us.

It lives in our body and the body. The body knows like the book, the body keeps the score or the body remembers,  something that perhaps. Seems insignificant, just say you're with a lover and they, they say something a certain way that brings you back. You might not even know, remember why consciously, why you're having such a strong reaction or a trigger.

As we say to, to that particular, you know, that [00:16:00] particular constellation of events or words or, or touch or whatever it is, and it can trigger something that you don't even. Consciously know about, and sometimes going back there. In, in therapy, the therapist, our job is to notice as you're recounting these things and just to say, Oh, wow.

It seems like you kind of just shut down there, or it seems like you got a little agitated or is there a reason that you really don't want to talk about this as it seem. Why do you think it seems uncomfortable and to maybe go into it, to lean into it gently. Now this is not something I would do in a first session.

So you're like, I don't wanna go to her. That sounds like torture because you know, the first couple of sessions are also about making the client comfortable with us and building that Alliance and building that trust and to move too quickly or to tell the person what their process should be, or is. When they are the expert on themselves, I never want to come across, like I'm the expert on the person.

[00:17:00] So I'm just there to notice and to guide and maybe to bring some curiosity to certain things at the beginning and. I think it does help and make people's anxiety go down when you give them something tangible. So I might give them something to read some bibliotherapy,  like you have this book, male sexual health hair, but I might give them something like,  coping with erectile dysfunction by,  that's a McCarthy.

Yeah.  or. Earlier than not maybe start them on after the first one or two sessions, start them on some, some exercises, mindfulness exercises.  now mindfulness as it, as a practice. Cause they were like, okay. Being paying attention to the present moment. How do you do that? I kind of briefly mentioned a sitting meditation or a breathing meditation.

 things, there are lots of apps out there now that can help with this, but I might start someone with, [00:18:00] cause I don't know what kind of trauma they have. So to bring someone deeply into their body, even into their breath for too long, might be like their feeling of their breath. When I say breath, it's the feeling of the breath near body at your belly or your chest, or even at the opening of it, your nostrils.

I tend not to dive too deeply or certainly give them. And out to say, you know, let me know if you want to end or it's uncomfortable, or just use this word because I don't know what it's like to be in their body. And they may be having these issues because they, they. Don't want to be in touch with their body that deeply, because it's not safe, it doesn't feel safe or it doesn't feel comfortable.

So I want to make sure that maybe it's a sound meditation to start or just feeling yeah. And their feet on the floor.  but if it doesn't feel like a, a major problem, it might be, I might start with a simple breath meditation. And what that does is it brings your mind into something. So when I say meditation and [00:19:00] mindfulness, We don't mean clear your mind, sitting on a mountain top, you know, levitating it's it's.

That would be cool. But,  with the limitations of our society and having to live in it, it's about putting something, focusing on something specific that's real and happening right now. Yeah. Well, 

Tim Norton: when you pointed out me taking that drink of water, it's like, she's a great mindfulness instructor because you.

Honed right into the sensations of the glass and tasting it and everything. And 

Giselle Jones: I, yeah. Yeah. And if you're paying attention to that, you're not really paying attention to all of the thoughts in that moment or you're giving it competition. Certainly the thoughts that can really dominate,  And, and, you know, I'm not good enough or I don't, haven't done enough today or the boss is out to get me, or I owe people money or, you know, my girlfriend boyfriend, you know, or is, is, [00:20:00] you know, mad at me are going to find me out, are going to leave me because of that.

All of that can kind of be backburnered for a little bit. When you, when you're focused on something that's actually happening, it's a lot easier to do that.  and to focus on something physical or. Or something you can sense with your senses, any of your five senses in the moment, rather than using your mind to combat your mind, to be like, get out of there, thought that's a lot harder than to say, Ooh, cool glass in my hand for a moment that is.

Commanded all of your attention. 

Tim Norton: And then you're, I'm assuming you're generalizing. Okay. So see what we just did with the glass. Now we want you to do that with your partner's body. I want you to do that with the present moment and the things that you like about the tactile. Aspects of sex? 

Giselle Jones: Absolutely. So what I would do probably first, unless it's couples coming in together, which they might,  I would have person do an individual,  practice at first, [00:21:00] just like a body scan, which I'll do a brief one with us in a bit, if you don't mind.

Sure.  a body scan,  a couple times a week or whenever they can get to it, it's a really hard thing for people to. Get to the coming and just feel ashamed or dismissive of it because they didn't get to it. But,  just having a practice of their own body and breath awareness, and then kind of bringing that awareness to a partner.

So mindfulness, as you said with a partner is,  we call it sensate focus. There are a lot of,  Ways you could describe it, but sensate focus therapy pretty much encompasses this. And what that is is basically interpersonal physical mindfulness activity, where one person radically receives and the other person radically explorers, you can say gifts, but that puts a little bit of a, an agenda on it.

And, and basically you are reclaiming intimacy in that [00:22:00] exercise without. Without agenda that I really want to stress without agenda. So normally when we have sex,  a lot of us tend to. Think about the reciprocity, like either, how am I performing right now or when someone's doing something to you? Okay, well, how am I going to do this back to them?

Or you're not really just focusing on the sensation that you're, you're feeling. Some people are better at this than others. You know, I definitely struggled with this. Myself is one of the reasons I'm in this. One of the many reasons I'm in this work, but that, that can be,  something that's really challenging and get people in their heads.

Performance-related anxiety. So to just know that right now, I'm just receiving and giving feedback to the other person and, or I'm just exploring right now. And there is no expectation. So to just broad, broadly to say what sensate focus is. It is an [00:23:00] exercise. I like to describe it as. Being like an alien, you're like an alien that's dropped to earth.

And this is the first time you've seen and into this body. First of all, for the first time, you're like transported into this really cool body with all of these senses in front of a human being, your first time, seeing another human being, this beautiful creature, how would you in a benevolent way,  explore that.

Explore that creature in front of you. Like how would you explore this person with touch with your fingertips, with the back of your hand, with smell, with taste.  and again, you're getting a,  a clearance from your partner about what's safe ahead of time, but what's, what's interesting about sensate focus as you take.

Sexual agenda off the table. And in fact, maybe in genital play is off the table for at least several sessions.  and you can clarify what genitals mean, but take that off the table so that, you know, [00:24:00] the, the, the temptation or the pressure to slide into that,  performance mode, even like a massage, you know, that, that.

That gets a little more formulaic. That's taken off the table and it's just exploring this person as if you're seeing them or a human being for the first time ever. And you don't say a lot and the person who's receiving,  gives feedback. They can use words, but they can also just use non-verbal feedback.

Like sounds moans. Like if something tickles, they can. You know, like they can, they can, you can say no with your body or with your voice or with your words, if something doesn't feel good,  or you don't want to be touched there or in that particular way. And let someone know if it feels good or neutral or whatever it is through your words and your, and your non-verbal activity.

And I also like to stress and not everyone does this, you do it on different nights. So the receiving person or days, or whenever you do it,  the receiving person is. [00:25:00] Receiving on Tuesday and the, and the next time you do it on a Thursday, you switch roles. So there still isn't that temptation to be like, okay, when I do it to them next, I'm going to do this.

It, it lessens that. 

Tim Norton: Okay, great. I ever heard sensate focus. Described so many times,  and trainings, and I love that so much that the alien metaphor and I love it. I love it. No, that's really good.  I'm going to back up to something you said a minute ago. We're I think, I dunno what it was, maybe just the way that you said it, but you were talking about how we.

Put a lot of pressures on males for, for performance anxiety. And it just the way that you've said it and your voice, I felt so validated and I'm not actually seeking treatment right now, but I, but it dawned on me in that moment, how nice that must be for men to [00:26:00] hear that from a woman, from a female therapist and the moment of, Hey, this is.

This is tough work. Sometimes we, we,  sometimes there's a lot of expectations.  do you, do you find that two guys respond well 

Giselle Jones: to that? I think a lot of them are, are greatly relieved by it. After the first, usually a couple minutes of them feeling kind of like, can we talk about this? Can I like, why not?

Because I'm so candid and sometimes overly. So like, it might be like, Oh, what kind of porn do you watch him? And then was like, what, what w what do you mean? I don't want to, you know what, and I'm like, Oh, I'm, you know what I might. So, you know what, we can ease into that as much as you are, as slowly as you'd like to.

Okay. I just want to let you know that I, I feel comfortable talking about it, so I will use, you know, and I'll use proper words for things, but I'm not, unless something's really offensive or I might have some curiosity about why they used a certain word for something.  I might. You know, I'm pretty open.

And like [00:27:00] people come to me for all sorts of things. People come to me too, open up their, their relationships or their marriages, or to explore polyamory or to, because I don't. Nothing really shocks me, you know? And the only thing I don't like is, you know, non-consensual activity pretty much. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: Okay. So, so it sounds like that could be a validating thing to explore and, and to hear,  from someone, Hey, that's I get it.

Is that that must be challenging for you. So 

Giselle Jones: yeah, a lot of men don't feel like they can talk of their space to talk about their issues because you know, for the same reason women have felt there wasn't space talk about their issues for a long time because there's, you know, people assume that, you know, men are men, male privilege, male men don't have as many problems or they have, you know, Their problems are not to be it's, it's a weak thing for men to share their problems, I guess, is another way of putting it that, [00:28:00]  you should be able to handle it.

And there it's a lot. It's a lot to handle the pressure of, of. Carrying the burden of initiating. And let's talk about like in a heteronormative,  situation,  it's initiating, dating or initiating. It's still out there it's much less than, than before, but the onus is on the male for that a lot. And,  I'd say in like the, the gay or the queer community, there's a different kind of pressure to always be, you know, And there's nothing wrong with wanting sex all the time with multiple partners, but there are a lot of men who are gay or who are in the queer community that do not necessarily want that.

And that's non that's. That's not the norm. So that's really difficult to talk about as well. So there are so many different pressures for men that you can have compassion on them, or you have compassion. The less people act in ways that that harm each other. So that's another way of looking at it. If people struggle [00:29:00] with saying, well, you know, They don't have the brand.

They have a lot of problems. There are so many men who, who struggle silently with sexual,  abuse or histories of sexual abuse as children, or even as adults for the first time. And don't feel like they have a space to report. They under report even even more than, than female fake temps. Yeah. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: Yeah.

Okay. So let's,  one of the reasons. I like working with erectile issues is there's it, it's a really easy,  easy thing to measure success. Like you're gonna be working with somebody with chronic depression and you never really know for sure. Like, Hey. Got a better job and, you know, did I do anything, but with erectile issues, it's, it's clear, you know, they come in next session.

 yay. And then something went really well. [00:30:00] So I, I want to ask if you, you know, you disguise the identity of your client, everything, but if you could re recall a success story or, or even just generally.  when therapy goes well for an erectile dysfunction client, like what, what does it look like? What are, what is the therapy or, you know, 

Giselle Jones: let me speak.

I really want to protect people that, you know, don't have,  having given clearance for me to share anything. So I'll just speak generally or making, maybe make an amalgam of a couple of clients. Okay.  so one of the things that's really helpful,  can be helpful is.  I mentioned really, really briefly porn is just checking in with like your consumption of porn.

And sometimes that along with some sort of mindfulness activity can really help, can help and they'll come back and they'll be like, you know what? After a couple of weeks, this, this, this worked and the w the, the relief and the [00:31:00] happiness and the, the sense of power that comes back to someone when they.

They and hope when they realize that they have, they can have control over this to some degree they can, they can shape this and they can do something that can help. And it doesn't have to be surgical or necessarily even,  medical, although it could be,  the relief and the empowerment I would say is the biggest thing that you see.

 what is one of the things I wanted to just,  Touch on because there can be so much resistance at the beginning to saying, how is this going to help me? But, Oh yes, this is one of the things I wanted to say is a practice. Like the practice of like, we might just start with the way that you're masturbating and I've had clients that.

Kind of avoid it because there's been such an issue. They actually will avoid engaging,  with even themselves. And there [00:32:00] can be a momentum that can happen. Like the more that they do it, the more they perform. And it's kind of counter-intuitive because you think you'd be building up all of this, you know, To be, to be crude juice, like building, building up, you know, your fire.

 but sometimes it's actually the use it or lose it. Like the more, the more you practice,  anything, but the more you practice masturbation, the more you practice,  intimacy with your partner, the, the, the more you. Bless you avoid, I guess there is a momentum that can happen. And that is one of the trends.

I think that I see more than anything that when you really dig in and you do you do it regularly, do the practice regularly. They're like, okay, they'll be like, okay, this came up this week, this came up this week. I couldn't practice because of this. I couldn't meditate because of this. I didn't, you know, engage with my partner because of this just life.

Right. Gets in the way. You'll see the functioning can go down. And then [00:33:00] when they're like, They get a little more time and space that they can give to it. It's the actual momentum of the practicing will, will help immensely. I mean, like it's almost scientific the way that the reports have come back. I haven't done a study, but it's, it's really consistent.

So yeah. Just know that if you do it once or twice, you're not expecting anything to happen, but that once or twice is, is part of a practice that over, you know, just say. A month or six weeks can actually make a difference that soon, or it could be longer. But,  and also maybe another thing that I've seen that gets people out of people's way is suppressed anger.

And that's where we talk about all of the stuff that's came before and that's going on now, when someone can actually express anger, maybe become less of a, a people pleaser and more of a leading more into there. Genuine yeses and nos with the people in their [00:34:00] lives that can actually open up the space because suppressed resentment and anger can actually be something that, that adds like a weight, like a weight on your penis.

Think of it that way. And then that might motivate you to, to explore it a little further. 

Tim Norton: And yeah, and it's, it's a it's fun homework, right? To assign,  masturbation as a homework assignment. I, you know, I always think of at the end of the day, like, Oh, I just signed two people to go home and masturbate and explore and, and get a new toy, get something like a Fleshlight or,  be like, you're saying, be mindful of.

Of their masturbation style and,  

Giselle Jones: the sensation in their whole body and not just focusing on the penis, it's a lot of pressure to just. You know, have that laser focus. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: You mentioned porn addiction earlier and porn, obviously there's a lot of [00:35:00] porn out there.  I think if you go onto the porn addiction websites, they'll say you got to stop altogether and, or you'll never have an erection again.

I mean, in so many words. So where do you, where do you stand on the whole porn as relating to the male sexuality? 

Giselle Jones: Yeah, that's a tricky, that's a tricky, tricky thing. And people get very defended. Sometimes, sometimes they don't care at all.  but sometimes they get very defended about,  just touching into their, their porn use at all.

And it's not, I think it's, it can be very normal and healthy for a lot of people. And for other people that are, have highly addictive personalities, it can really just be. And as an,  an escape from reality and in a deeper and more threatening way to their, to their healthy functioning as a sexual being.

So as I think maybe with all porn, but especially with heterosexual porn, it's just not realistic. So if you're, if you're really like. Attaching your [00:36:00] erotic template to something that can't happen and that can't happen in real life. And that's all you're watching and you're watching it a lot.  I don't know all of the neurological data on it, but you are changing your, your neurological makeup.

And the good news is it can change back, but,  you are changing it and you may find a real life situation, just not. No, you're not able to find arousal from it. So when I say assign,  masturbation homework, even if someone doesn't have, I think, a, an addictive problem with porn, which is, you know, it actually very common now and people who weren't didn't tend to other addictions can become addicted to porn because of all of those little,  bait clicks and things like that.

It's set up to deepen and deepen and deepen your. You're use and, and heightened what the intensity of what you need to see they to get off. But I [00:37:00] will say, can you use a picture and tell a story with like, you know, from a magazine, like a, it can be regular picture or it can be a porno, like a porn magazine.

That's fine, but it's still because your mind will slow down and allow the imagination to too. To move in and then maybe you don't even need the picture. Maybe just use your imagination. And then you're really in touch with what's going on in your body with, with anything like with TV, with most of screen stuff we check out like with kids and the speed at which they watch,   cartoons and things like that.

Now animation the real life can't compete with that. Even the, just, just the speed alone. So it's, it's a similar thing that I might ask them to just. You know, maybe tone it down. Like, I feel like I watch, you know, like two hours a day and I'm like, can you do like one hour, every three days, every two days.

 And give them other things to substitute. Like I said, like using a still picture or using toys [00:38:00] or using something that brings them into their body in a way,  that the mindfulness practice becomes part of their masturbation or part of their play. So they're, they're really in their bodies and less, less either checked out or in their heads.

Right? 

Tim Norton: No, that's,  two hours a day of masturbating to porn. And especially that can be a lot, especially if,  If you're going from screen to screen, to screen and from college gang bang to something kinkier and kinkier that isn't happening. I mean, Hey, if you're having college gang bangs all the time and your regular life, then, okay.

Yeah, you are, you're fine. And I mean, that's, that's, that's gonna be your erotic template, but a lot of people don't have access to that and that's not their sexual reality. So,  it, it. Stands to reason that it might be get hard. It might be difficult to get turned on by the one partner you've been seeing for the last five years,  that has a 

Giselle Jones: normal [00:39:00] body, their whole body, that 

Tim Norton: isn't right.

And, and, and she is not a sorority and she is not more like a changing person all the time.  and there's a, there's a big debate, you know, at some point, and we'll probably have an episode all about sex addiction or porn addiction, but just generally speaking. You know, for everybody who debates, whether or not it exists.

The one thing that we're all struck by is that there seems to be this development of tolerance. Yes. That that's what reminds us of addiction is Hey two beers. Isn't doing it for me anymore. I need three. And then eventually certain kind of drinker is drinking six, seven, eight, just, just going out. And we've seen that happen with porn.

Giselle Jones: Absolutely people lose time. People lose valuable time with,  people they'd rather be spending time with in real life, whether it's families or lovers or friends,  work. Yeah. They can actually get in trouble, major trouble at work if it's found on their computer, but just losing time [00:40:00] doing the things they should be doing at work and,  or just checking out more and more out of the real world and.

 there are, you know, you can develop like depression from that obesity. Different things can just, you can spiral into other different problems from that. But. The porn itself, just be conscious, be mindful during your use of porn because it's, it's often designed. I mean, they, that's how they made their money is to get you unconscious and to get your tolerance increasing to something that wasn't even on the radar for you, for your, for your template.

And there's nothing wrong with exploring, but then. Then, you know, like, boy, next door, girl, next door stuff. Isn't going to work for you anymore. Or, you know,  vanilla as we call it.  situations might not work for you. And as you said, if you have like a pretty intense community that you're in and you know, you, you have that, you know, safe access to BDSM practices and things like [00:41:00] that, then.

Yeah. Okay. But you probably don't need to watch that much more anyway, but yeah, just to make sure that you weren't checking out into something that's not. That's not attainable or accessible for you. There are people who will, you know, masturbate to porn or get hard with porn and then pull their partner in.

And that can, if that's something that you're doing together, but if something that you have, that's cool, I guess, for if that's cool for both of you, but if it's something that you, you have to do and you're your limit, you're limiting yourself and it will get harder and harder and harder for you to get hard.

 so. I think that something, that some people are very open and non defendant about checking in them. And some people are like, well, step off my porn lady, like, what are you doing? You know, they don't like it. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: There is that episode of South park where they lose the internet and they can't watch porn.

You see that and they [00:42:00] all go crazy 

Giselle Jones: the whole town. Great. It's really 

Tim Norton: fascinating.  Okay. Yeah. And then don't get me wrong where we're, I'm at least pro porn. And I know there's plenty of ways that it's going to enhance a relationship.  just like with anything, if you can't eat chocolate cake morning, noon, and night every day and not expect there not to be a ramification for that because you know, it's all about balance, man.

Yeah, exactly.  okay, good. So. What percentage of your case load, would you say at any given moment is guys who are struggling with erection issues? 

Giselle Jones:  I'd say because people are often daunted to go to a woman, it's pretty, you know, I'd say it's about maybe. 20% or maybe even 10%. Yeah. It's pretty, it's, it's not that high.

 but then people come in, you realize that it [00:43:00] might be part of it, but whether they knew it and they were couching it in something else to begin with, or it's part of a complex thing that a couple is going through and it's part of the whole constellation of what they're going through. And that's like, okay, now let's, let's touch on this.

 but I will say that some, there, there occasionally men. That will feel more comfortable coming to me. And yeah, I think part of it is there is not that, you know, that, that thing growing that whole Oedipal thing, that whole like male, male, male threat thing, like there's no competition here. I'm not performing in the same way that they are in any way.

So. They might feel less is, and this is not a sexual relationship, sexualized relationship.  well, it might be sexualized in, in their mind, but it's not in a sexual relationship, so there's a boundary there. So there is their safety,  That they will not be judging them in a certain way or they, they don't have to be [00:44:00] holding up themselves up to me is, you know,  as, as a comparative,  source.

Yeah. Or maybe they just felt a lot of compassion and from their mother and they didn't from their father, it might be that simple. And they might not even know why they prefer to talk to a woman about this, but some people do I'm here for you if you do. But if, if you do come in and you try and it just doesn't, it just.

Don't feel like you can open up or don't feel like you can talk about these things. I would not take offense at all. You know, I would definitely find I would process it and see if there's something there that we can work with. But if it's something that they just want to be, you know, facilitate just like someone's going to want to go to,  they, they want to know that the therapist is, is gay or queer or are.

Of a certain race or, you know, oftentimes it doesn't make a difference to people, but sometimes it does. So yeah. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: Hear you say that to remind me that sometimes that, that male, male tendency toward [00:45:00] competition can certainly be present in the room and that, you know, I have to make adjustments to language or just, you know, bring it up, just say, Hey, I know guys tend to compete.

 Do you know, do you, do you think about anything like that, is that interfering with your progress with being able to open up about stuff?  

Giselle Jones: it's really interesting. Yeah. Cause I always think about saying, are you comfortable talking to me as a woman, but I think that's awesome that you would say, are you comfortable talking to me as another man?

Sure. 

Tim Norton: And I would assume, I mean, I don't know your whole approach, but you're talking about that dynamic of why pick a female, you know, Are you processing some kind of mom thing, some kind of sister thing, is that getting worked out in these sessions? Could you speak a little bit more about that? Like how does that come up or play out or what does that even mean?

Giselle Jones:  yeah, that's a complex thing because you [00:46:00] know, some people are like, what do you mean? And I wouldn't necessarily say that to a client that that's. But I might say, do I remind you of anybody,  in, in your life and or how did you come across? You know, my,  how did you come to my doorstep? Like what brought you here?

And, you know, I've had people say, you know, you're you just remind me of. You know, they are white male who had a really, you know, hard upbringing and difficult family life and the black women in their community and black, by the way, the black women in their community,  you know, were really like nurturing to them or something like there or their friends or, you know, it could be that, or it could be,  I'm like a maternal or a sister kind of sisterly or auntie or whatever type of, type of a role for them.

And that might be someone from whom they felt very validated and also might be someone from whom they [00:47:00] are with whom they felt very, very invalidated so that they, they were shamed by. And,  it's what, you know, we call a corrective experience to be with. A woman or a woman of a certain demographic or age, or just, it might remind you of someone for just the non-obvious reason,  to have a good experience, to have a good kind, compassionate experience with someone that may even remind you of someone that you didn't have, that a core person in your life that you didn't have that with.

So sometimes you can see that there's something more going on then. Then the situation might obviously warrant. And you might say, you know, is there something more going on here or did I just remind you of someone or are I often will ask or not even that often I'll ask someone, how old do you feel right now?

And I try to say it in the least shaming way possible. Like how old are you right now? But they just know, I really mean like how [00:48:00] old do you feel right now? And it can sometimes shock people and be like, why, w w I don't know what you mean by that. And I might get a little more specific, like, but language seemed a little young that you use just then, did you feel like your age, or did you feel like in your body, do you feel like you might, it'd be like 14 or 20 or eight or two?

 and that's kind of a conversation that we can have too. And if you felt that way,  You know, is there anyone that I reminded you of in that moment or a situation that you were reminded of in that moment? And it might be something that might needs to unlock for them,  consciously or unconsciously to just talk about in a safe place or express an emotion more importantly, or a physical feeling emotions live in the body and express through the body first, in my opinion.

So if you have a tightness in your chest,  that could be. Anything, let's just say fear.  and we'll process that feeling first and then maybe we'll call it [00:49:00] identified as fear, or they'll identify it as fear of eventually, but to lean into it, first feelings that we avoid. 

Tim Norton: And I think that answer right there, you spoke earlier about how this is therapy.

Like, yes, I'm a sex therapist, but first and foremost, you're a therapist, we're therapists and talking about things like, you know, dynamics and who we represent as objects, as different roles and, and someone's lives and, and,  you know, different ages and regressions and things like that. We're, we're doing therapy and.

What's different, I think is we are more trained and more comfortable talking about sex. And, you know, technically all therapists should be talking about sex more often.  but, but you know, there's, that's been a gap in society, so there's jobs for people like you and me. And,  and that's. But, but we're therapists, but therapy is going to come up or, you know, some [00:50:00] sessions there, there are some periods of treatment where I'm not talking about sex much at all.

 and because we've got so much to work with around,  diff anxiety and indifferent issues and trauma and all of that, and, and. Try to remind someone that sex is a part of why they're there and let's get back to it and make sure we're not avoiding it.  but yeah, that's, that's that's 

Giselle Jones: therapy. Yeah.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. That's that's why we do it. It's a little more complex than, than you might feel when you seek us out, but it's, it is therapy and, and. Hopefully this will open people's eyes a little bit more to what the process is like in the can have a little more patience and,  less trepidation going,  a little deeper with this kind of 

Tim Norton: work.

Yeah. And it's, I bet it was pretty good news that you said a few minutes ago. Sometimes it doesn't take very many sessions. Sometimes it really does. Yeah. Especially, you know, [00:51:00] If you've had success in the past, I think is, is a good sign. If it's just particular to this partner.  if you're younger sometimes too, you just, you need some, some training, some skills under your belt, and you need to be able to flush some things out with a professional and ask some hard questions.

 Yeah, it's certainly it's disappointing because you're like, Hey, we had just had success and Oh, by the way, 

Giselle Jones: I got what I need. And then there are other people that it's a little more convoluted. Like you said, maybe they haven't had any experience at all.  and or they haven't had any successes at all.

 but yeah, it can be pretty. Pretty speedy. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: So what are some things, or one thing, for example, that you find yourself explaining over and over again, that you sh you feel should be more common knowledge. You feel like more guys should know more guys should be taken [00:52:00] aside when they're going through puberty and said, this is how things work and just some basics.

That's 

Giselle Jones: okay. That's yeah, there's so many. I would think something like, well, one of the things I just that comes to mind is that pretty much, now everyone gets sex ed in school, but they don't get like sex ed on a relational level. And what it might feel like to,  explore for the first time and the, and the feelings that come up afterwards and what is normal and what isn't, and, you know, evacuating more quickly at first that might change all of these things.

Just what it's like to talk to somebody, talk to a potential partner about sex or talk to,  how you might feel afterwards. What is it like to,  achieve radical consent,  between partners,  even in the middle of an act?  I [00:53:00] think things like that need to be taught very, very young and. Because otherwise people are just getting their education from porn.

And that also is the relational part of that. That's, that's probably the most fake part of it is the relational part of what's happening in a lot of porn. And,  I think that's just really missing. I know,  sometimes my clients are like, yeah, I had sex ed, but if we just talked about STDs until it was like pretty.

Pretty gnarly. And then there's not even any, like, just like pleasure. Like people don't even talk about like how to seek and, and give yourself and ask for pleasure. Like, how do you talk about what you want? Like, no, not no one cause it's happening, but very few people are talking to their kids about, or their older children about,  teenagers about what.

What sex can be as far as a positive, beautiful thing. It's either just like here's some condoms be safe, whatever that means. And, [00:54:00]  you know, or just don't do it, or, you know, just a lot of deep conversations about the actual joy of sex, the pleasure of it. So those would be the two things that I would say are really missing early on.

Is how to, how to ask for the things that you want and also how to deal with relational issues, including,  the shifting nuance and, and nuanced animal that is consent.  that's a huge, huge thing. Hmm. Okay. I like that. Yeah. Boys and girls, men and women, and yeah. Good. 

Tim Norton: And. And you feel, I mean, that stuff's pretty obtainable out in the internets and books.

Any, any favorites that you have, or I don't know, films or anything that you go to that really like, I really like how they portrayed that. Or I have a trick question that I'm [00:55:00] hoping you have something, because what I find there's not enough example of like healthy or.  popular male sex role models out there that were like, Hey, you know, I really liked that intimate talk that they 

Giselle Jones: had.

Tim Norton: Right, right, right. Like, I, I can, I'm trying to think if I ever seen a movie where the guy really just asked for his sexual needs to get met in a really nice way that was. Blended into the plot and then didn't, you know, it wasn't just obviously, or an erotic 

Giselle Jones: movie. No, I'm struggling to think of one myself right now as well.

Tim Norton: so Hollywood, we need more of that guys. 

Giselle Jones: It's a really,  beautiful,  dual virginity last moment that I think of, and it might've even be horrible. It's from my childhood where I think of this one movie,  It was the first time I saw,  Helena, Bonham, Carter, [00:56:00] and Carrie always there in this movie called lady Jane.

It's like this nerdy, like,  English aristocracy movie. But,  it's about this, this young girl who was on the throne for nine days and then beheaded in real life and, you know, forced into a marriage, but how they actually find love in this, in this marriage. And it's one of the most like, Quirky awkward and tender love scenes.

There, there it's, that's both of their first times, I think,  to my knowledge and, but let me think of something contemporary. I'm not even sure. There's probably more fiction and books out there then. Right. Films. I've been 

Tim Norton: watching Atlanta and Oh, one thing I like awesome show. I don't know the. The couple talks necessarily about sex, but I really love their just intimacy while they're in bed.

I feel is really real. A very honest, yeah. It's it's like, Hey, I've had that conversation.  and I wish they would [00:57:00] delve into something along the lines of what we're talking about at some point. Yeah. That's a great job.  But, okay. So 

Giselle Jones: I want on that line, I would also like to see more,  healthy sexual representation among,  people of color as well.

 particularly with black males and black women and, and their partners.  that's under underrepresented and yeah. Hmm. Absolutely. 

Tim Norton: Absolutely. Okay. So you said you were going to lead us through a body scan? Yeah. 

Giselle Jones: Sure. Okay. Let's do it. So,  I just want you to sit. They don't have to change the way you're sitting, if you're lying down.

Cool. If you're sitting, if you're driving, just keep your eyes open and just, just feel the body parts as we go along, but don't get too lost in it. So. One thing I would like if you are sitting just to [00:58:00] really,  have your feet planted on the floor as opposed to dangling. So there's a grounded-ness with the earth and we might actually start there.

If you feel comfortable, you can, I'm not driving and you can lower your gaze or close your eyes entirely

and feed on the floor or maybe the whole back body or side body along a floor surface.  just start with taking,  just wait for it, but we're going to take three deep, more intentional breaths. If you can breathe in and out through your nostrils, if your nose isn't obscured, then I'm obstructed rather than you can,  use your nose.

Otherwise you breathe through your mouth. That's fine. So just deeply inhale and exhale. Just think the word soften in your head as you exhale. Again, deeply inhale, [00:59:00] exhale. Soften could be a jaw, your chin nose, deeply inhale, exhale, soften, shoulders, fingers, toes, and just allowing your breath to return to whatever its natural state is right now.

Just be aware that you have feet and you know, you have feed right now that your eyes are closed by the pressure of your feet on the ground, feeling the difference between the base of your feet and the tops of your feet. So the souls, the tops of your feet, and almost like drawing your attention up your body, like, like a spiral spiraling in and out.

Your inner ankle, outer ankle spiraling, upwards along your shins and calves to your knees. And we're just noticing right now, I'm moving kind of [01:00:00] quickly more quickly than I might, but just noticing areas of tension without needing to change anything. That's part of mindfulness, acceptance for things as they are.

And. Just noticing what feels tight, warm cold in the noticing things may change. Things may be release. Things could actually get more uncomfortable first, but just noticing even colors might come up for you or associations. If your mind drifts, just bring yourself gently back, gently, gently, gently, like letting go of a balloon and then bringing yourself back.

Your knee caps, the backs of your knees, spiraling up your inner outer thighs, strong muscle groups of your thighs. If you feel comfortable and safe, you might just rest your awareness for a moment. And the bowl of your pelvis, almost like your pelvis is a bowl and your awareness is just like milk pouring into [01:01:00] a bowl, filling it up.

And I'm not going to linger there too much right now and not knowing what your experience is, but you're bringing your attention to your lower abdomen. This might be an area where we might pause for a second and do one of more of those more deep, intentional breath. Steeply inhale with me. Exhale,

just noticing. What's able and willing to soften might do so, but just noticing for now your middle upper abdomen, solar plexus, just drawing your attention to your rib cage, your mighty rib cage, and just imagining you can, you can notice or sense the skin, the muscle, the bone, the delicate tissue underneath.

[01:02:00] Housing your heart, the powerful muscular organ of your heart. Also very, very tender and vulnerable at the same time. And with your intention, with your attention on your heart, perhaps bringing one of those more intentional breaths in again, deeply inhale, exhale, soften. Your shoulders and back down your shoulder blades, almost deaf as if too gentle, warm, benevolent hands are resting on your upper back on your shoulder blades.

See if anything softens there or just, just drops down and micro millimeter, even down your middle, back, lower back, noticing what feels tight, what feels tense, what feels positive? Negative. Neutral your fingertips, palms of your [01:03:00] hands, backs of your hands. Spiraling your attention up your wrists, forearms inner outer elbow, your biceps triceps, armpits, back up to your shoulders.

And just drawing your attention. This is just like shining a little light. Like someone's just shining a little flashlight inside your body. Again, there's a temptation to, to judge where you are sometimes just noticing as it is without needing to change it. Something changes. Cool. If it doesn't absolutely cool.

The back of your neck, sometimes our back body seemed a little more vulnerable. The area that we can't see. The back of your head, almost like combing your attention, like fingers up the back of your head. If you have hair like combing all the way up to the top of your head, dropping down your attention, dropping your attention down to your temples [01:04:00] across your forehead.

And again, imagine if somebody had a nice warm hand on your forehead, would it be all tense and scrunched up? Would it be soft and pliable? Drawing your attention down to your eye sockets. Are your eyes straining to see even with your eyes closed or lowered or they resting a little more softened back, back in their sockets, just noticing down the bridge of your nose, almost like skiing down a slope, drawing your attention down the bridge of your nose to your lips.

Tongue jaw. All of that can be connected. Lips, tongue, jaw, nose can even be connected down to your neck and shoulders, but kind of resting for a moment at your throat, a very vulnerable, powerful seat of the body where the voice manifests, but also a very vulnerable part, right by your windpipe [01:05:00] and drawing your attention back down.

And maybe we will just stop. Again, in our chest heart center, deep breath in and out.

And when you feel comfortable, you can just gently, gently blink your eyes open. And again, if you hear any sounds, we've got some sounds here in the background. That's all part of the experience. Just noticing. Okay. Noticing sound hearing, and then bringing yourself back when that's less compelling. To the feeling in your body and what it's like to have just given yourself a little attention, given yourself a little time in.

Yeah. Thank you for joining me for that. Thank you. 

Tim Norton: You're welcome. And I I'm really glad that we had a chance to do that because I [01:06:00] feel like that could be a really powerful tool.  when you. If, if a listener you were sitting there and you notice tension in every inch of your body,  Might not be the best,  circumstances by which to obtain an erection.

There's it doesn't sound like you're ready to have sex. It sounds like you're, you're ready to fight or you're ready to run away somewhere.  so.  thanks for leading us through that. 

Giselle Jones: Absolutely. As I would get more and more working with someone, I might, you know, we bring compassion to the parts that are, as opposed to like let's, let's muscle, our way out of this.

Let's bring compassion to those parts that are struggling inside of us. And,  Get more honed in, on, on the meditation, but that was a really general body scan. And I'm glad that we had a distraction as well, because sometimes people are like, I can't practice these things cause I've got kids in the house [01:07:00] or I've got this or I've got that, or I don't have it.

It's all part of it. We can't escape the chaos of our lives. So when you have chaotic things happening around you,  it's a great thing to just include it in the practice. I noticed this, I noticed that kid on what sounded like a skateboard or something out there. And as opposed to like, Oh no, now we've ruined this part of the podcast.

It's like, no, it's just included it's reality. Then that's what it is. That's what we're doing. Right. Paying attention to real things that are happening right now. Right? 

Tim Norton: Right. And that's, that's so different than,  a mindfulness meditation that asks you to clear your head, to imagine being on top of a mountain.

 that's why I really loved your example of me reaching for the water. Again, you're, you're paying attention to everything that's happening right here right now. Everything 

Giselle Jones: is an opportunity. Right. 

Tim Norton: Right.  and I don't know if the microphones would have picked up the, the noisy kids that were just outside the studio, but maybe they did.

 but yeah, there was a, there was a bang,  and,  but  [01:08:00] let us ride through that. Yeah. But you'll have your distract, so yeah. Well, anything else for the guys out there or anything else you wanted to say about.  Jazelle jones.com. That's with two L's. 

Giselle Jones: Yes. If you like, look me up my practice, both my therapy practice and my mindfulness offerings are on,  Jazelle jones.com, G I S E L L E J O N E s.com.

And I'll be happy to answer questions if you have, and you want to contact me through there, but it's just, it's really been a pleasure. I love that you've created this because this is an amazing opportunity to. Have dialogue already sex is a dialogue we don't necessarily have and in healthy ways and realistic ways.

And, and this is. A sub, you know, a sub, a sub subject of that that's even more in the shadows. So, yeah. Thanks for shining a little light on it. 

Tim Norton: Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much for, for coming and I, I hope [01:09:00] that,   hope to see you out in the field. Hope to do more stuff like this. This is great.  yeah.

Thanks for being on the show. 

Giselle Jones: My pleasure. Have a good one. Thank you. Bye-bye.