TODAY'S GUEST: Dani Katz, tantric healer

I'm extremely happy to welcome Dr. Laurie Bennet Cook to Hard Conversations!

Dani Katz established her reputation as one of Los Angeles' edgiest literary talents by way of her bold voice, her expanded perspective and her mastery of language. As a visionary consciousness explorer drawn to the outermost edges of ALL of it, Katz writes raw, deep, illuminating and hilarious about sex, consciousness, wellness, metaphysics, and new paradigm culture, having published - to date - hundreds of articles in LA Weekly, Los Angeles Times, Vice, Teen Vogue, LA Yoga, Santa Fe Reporter, Reality Sandwich, et al.

In addition to her broad spectrum of practical experience and formal studies, including a Master's Degree in Journalism, Katz has spent the past several years immersed in the study of Quantum Languaging and conscious communication, researching and perfecting the myriad ways, whys and hows that language influences our every human experience.

Known as well for her adorable line drawings as she is her wily wordplay, Katz debuted her first graphic book, Yes, I Am, in November of 2016. She works as a transformational coach and Quantum Languaging consultant in Northern New Mexico (and everywhere, because...the internet).

• WEBSITE:

  www.quantumlanguaging.com

• https://www.amazon.com/Dani-Katz/e/B079KK7DNF%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share

YOU'LL LEARN

• What it’s like to work with a tantrica or sexual massage

• How we develop unconscious sexual goals

• Hip undulations tell us a lot about sexuality

• The detriments of sexual shame

• Practical tips you can try at home

• The downside of porn

• Insights on sexuality

• What the sacrum is

• The importance of grip on penis sensitivity

• Using non-dominant hands can have benefits

• And more!

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING to my male sexuality and sex therapy podcast!

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And lastly, if you have any questions (or would like answers to previously submitted voicemail questions!), head on over to Tim’s website.

About the Show

Introducing Hard Conversations, a podcast about male sexuality, and all things erectile, from the latest natural erectile dysfunction treatment to the best ed medical treatment. Therapist Tim Norton expands the conversation about male sexuality, adds context to why we struggle as a society to have hard conversations and breaks down how in a sex-positive environment there really is no room for taboos, judgment, or shame when it comes to penises.

YOUR online sex therapy and couple’s therapy HOST:

Tim Norton is a sex positive sex therapist working in private practice. He offers online therapy, online sex therapy, online sex coaching, and therapy and coaching for somatic symptom disorder.

Tim obtained his bachelor’s and master’s degrees from the University of Southern California. Tim is a proud member of American Association of Sex Counselors, Educators, and Therapists (AASECT), the Los Angeles Sexological Association, and works part-time with the Pain Psychology Center in Beverly Hills.

Hard Conversations Podcast Transcript

Tim Norton: Hello, and welcome to hard conversations. Really excited about my next guest, Dani Katz, another native of Los Angeles, like myself, a writer who has had pieces published in the LA times, LA weekly vice and a number of other publications. She holds a master's degree in journalism from the university of Southern California.

Fight on today. Do I have I seen you in football?

Dani Katz:   I've never been to a USC game. 

Tim Norton: I didn't think so, she's also an artist. She's a communication strategist. She has a webcast called words. Our matter [00:01:00] this year published the new pea handbook volume one little languaging hacks for big change. And you might be wondering she is a tantrica.

So. Thank you for coming today, Dani. 

Dani Katz: Thanks for having me, Tim. 

Tim Norton: I think all of our listeners know what a writer is and what a master's degree is, and maybe what a webcast is and what a publication is. Does anybody know what a tantrica is? 

Dani Katz:  it seems like no one really knows what a temporary goes. I'm not even sure.

I know what a ton Trico is.  I know tantra means to weave,  my history with becoming a ton TRICA is,  I studied with different contract practitioners for years and years and years. I mean, I've been studying. Yoga since my twenties and all sorts of different like physical disciplines,  and all things to like purify my body and clean out my noughties and.

Spark up [00:02:00] my shock reds and those types of things.  and I was told by an astrologer that I'm a Vestal Virgin. So that's all Virginians are people who, according to their astrology, they have Venus invest on that. Generally kicks in around like 37 years old.  according to the law. And that's kind of when all of this started to open up for me.

And it was basically just following a series of signs and synchronicities inviting me to start working with people. And my logical mind was like,  I'm a Jewish American princess with a master's degree. I don't do that.  but the signs were very clear and, and my gut was very much a yes. So then I started working with men in the tantric arts.

 and it's, I know this, isn't asking, answering your question as far as what is a tantrica,  And I think it's just a willingness to engage sacred sexuality and to go into those realms with people in service, to their transformation and their healing and in highest service to like the divine masculine and all of us.

Tim Norton: Okay. Awesome. [00:03:00] So what happens. In these 

Dani Katz: sessions,  I mean, they, they look like a basic full body massage,  and they're just no boundaries as far as where the client is being touched.  and it's very much,  Oh, there's no mutual touch. It's a one-way thing. It's just,  me giving, giving touch and giving energy through my fingers.

And it's different for every person I'm very intuitively guided.  To give whatever the client needs. 

Tim Norton: And so, and so sometimes you touch penises. 

Dani Katz: I do touch penises. That is a part of it.  the just is, there's no goal in touching the penis.  and obviously there's like no shame as far as what hap like anything can happen as far as how the penis wants to express its pleasure.

 but there's no goal and there's,  like my, my genuine. My [00:04:00] general strategy is,  to use as little stimulation as possible to engender the most amount of feelings. So it's my, my approach is less stimulation and to help the client increase their sensitivity and to expand their ability to feel.  and that is like completely an FMO to like how Westerners are being.

Trained to have sex. I mean, not trained, but how like most Westerners are having sex right now. And from my experience with that, and working with as many clients as I have is like, that's not a sustainable trajectory. If we keep needing more and more stimulation to feel things, we're going to hit a point where that just, you know, is impossible to keep up with.

So it, in my experience, it's just so much easier to pull back on all the stimulation, just increase the human sensitivity,  which is also more empowering. And then we get to open up to like, Realms of like so much more [00:05:00] pleasure and, and sensation and fun and joy that we didn't realize were possible when we're just like trying to do things like harder and faster, 

Tim Norton: harder, and faster.

So how does that actually play out when, I mean, I don't know if you say this verbally, but this idea of no goal. I think a lot of guys who might go into a situation like this definitely have a goal. 

Dani Katz: Yeah.  well, I make it, I'm very selective about who I work with.  and,  super energetically sensitive and I have a very, you know, I'm a writer and you commented when I came here that my bio is super long, so I'm also very wordy.

 so I have a very long explanation that I send to any potential client before coming to work with me so that they know what they're in for, because what I'm offering is. Seems to be a departure from what other country, because or central massage practitioners are offering.  I don't like if someone has a goal, that's fine, but I'm, I'm always in service to what's in highest service to them as a [00:06:00] whole person.

And,  A lot of people just want penis tingles and there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm just offering something bigger and better. So a lot of times men will, I see this. So, I mean, we all do this when there's,  we're starting to get aroused. We'll like contract around the sensation and try to direct it more into our genitals.

And that's. Obviously indicative of like someone has a goal and someone's trying to get somewhere and that's a really easy way to like shut down the bulk of this sensation and just,  guarantee a very sort of like flat status quo. Sexual experience. It's not going to be any thing different contraction does.

Yeah. That contraction because when we're contracting it. So that's,  when I see that, which is obviously indicative of a goal, whether it's conscious or not, someone's trying to get towards orgasm.  I will encourage my clients to do the counter intuitive thing and to, instead of contracting around the [00:07:00] sensation, to relax around it and expand into it and to just let it do what it wants to do.

So, so much of what I do is really guiding my clients into a more receptive state of being,  and to just avail themselves to the energies that are coming through. And then, I mean, 99% of the time. They're surprised by how much sensation is available and by where they're feeling and all over their body.

And,  so that's a way that I'll steer people away from the goal. I'm never going to like. Shame someone or tell them that they're wrong, but I do let them know ahead of time. Like that's not really how I operate and while it generally happens,  I just think it's very liberating to take that off the table and like, sure.

It's a possibility and it's fine. You know, anything goes here, but like, we don't have to get anywhere. We're just going to like, feel good and, and, 

Tim Norton: okay. This is what I love about.  Intersectionality [00:08:00] conversations, because oftentimes what I'm basically telling a guy is, you know, you're stuck in fight or flight, you know, and, and likely if you're really anxious, if you're having performance, anxiety, there might be higher levels of cortisol running through your veins.

And the more you try to control, the more you try to force penetration and ejaculation, whatever you're trying to do,  The harder it's going to be, or the more difficult it's going to be to actually get your penis to do what you wanted to do.  and the less enjoyable the experience is going to be overall.

And you're, you're saying the same thing, but in terms of energy and. Mine is honestly just a theory. You know, we, we haven't exactly had a ton of scopes going into being as, as wild as this happening that live monitors, their cortisol levels were. I'd like to say, I'd like people to think that we are there, but we're not there, you know?

And so. Yeah, your, your theory is just as compelling of mine. We're basically 

Dani Katz: saying the same thing. Yeah. We are saying the same thing. [00:09:00] And similarly to you, like I'm, I'm in the field. So this is my experience from the, you know, hundreds and hundreds of penises that I've dealt with, but I don't have any hardcore metrics and I haven't done any double-blind stories.

This is just. Again, like we're, we're dealing with our experience and we're kind of like the old Indian adage of the people trying to the blind guys, trying to figure out what the elephant is. But, and yes, we are saying the same thing and I'm also speaking in more like feminine terminology and also terminology that like repels a lot of left lane, rationalist.

Understandably. 

Tim Norton: Okay, great. Yeah. So more or less story relax. Yes. 

Dani Katz: Relax and let the sexual energy have its way with you because it's smarter. And it's going to give you such a better time.  Then you thinking that you know what to do with it. Cause none of us actually do. 

Tim Norton: And so I was reading your article this morning, getting ready for the interview in a shoe at an article and advice last year.

 and [00:10:00] in it, and you, you had a couple of catch phrases that I wanted to ask you about,  Hip undulations and scrotum contractions and the Palm against the sacrum. So you, you really you're in there and you're noticing things. So you, you see, I guess you see signs of something that the energy is doing.

So could you give us some of the. The details of, of what,  what exactly it is that you see and what you're working with 

Dani Katz: for sure.  yeah, so I am hyper present during the session. I'm, you know, I'm a bit of an overachiever, so I really like to show up,  and in the past, I would say four or five years,  Ed is certainly on the rise.

So it's something that I'm attuned to and I'm, I'm starting, like as soon as a client comes in, I haven't worked with him. I want to figure out where he's at on the spectrum. And I've noticed like to ask a point blank question, like I'm never gonna get a straight answer. Like,  so yes, [00:11:00] so I have these little signs, so.

When, you know, the client generally will start off on their stomach.  and I'm, I'm working with different shockers and different energy points just to see how responsive they are.  so I do work with the sacrum.  Oh, okay. So the sacrum is the little triangular boney patch of the, in the lower back, like kind of above your butt cheeks.

 so the sacr this is the second chakra is our sexual center.  And we received through the backside of our shock Rose. So I work a lot with the sacrum to open up the client to receive sexual energy, because it's also a departure for a lot of men who generally,  like in heterosexual sexual relations are they're giving and they're directing and they're guiding and there's, you know, it seems like there's, there's pressure in that as far as like multitasking and making sure that their partners happy and whatnot.

And so big part of what I'm doing is. [00:12:00] Is flipping the table so that the client all has to do is receive that is it, there's no multi, he doesn't have to worry about anything else except. Letting himself feel good. Right. 

Tim Norton: And you start at the lower back. 

Dani Katz: I don't necessarily, well, I actually do start there.

 I started the lower back and I am,  a lot of what I'm doing is getting the lower back that Shakara this sacrum to open up. And I'm also working with the back of the heart chakra and to link those because there's such a breakdown of that in our culture. And like, to let it be a very loving,  experience,   I just want to make sure that I'm remembering all the things that you asked me about sacrum was the first one.

Tim Norton: Yeah. And I asked about, I just was, I saw some quotes that I thought were really interesting images. I, you mentioned hip undulations. You mentioned scrotum contraction. Yeah. Right. 

Dani Katz: Okay. So,  so I'll do them contractions first and then we'll come back. So,  so when I flip a client over, onto their back,  [00:13:00] Then I want to see what I'm dealing with because it's also, I am, you know, I'm mapping out the structure.

So if I do have a client with ed, I know that I'm going to need to a lot, a lot more time to be dealing with the genitals specifically.  So I will, I'm working with,  Chinese acupressure points on the legs. And as I worked my way up the legs, I'm looking to see at what point the scrotum will contract to see how sensitive they are.

If I'm dealing with a client who has ed, there won't be any, you know, there'll be very little scrotum contraction or none at all. And it used to be that I only saw that in elderly clients and more and more and more, I'm seeing that in younger and younger clients, like at a. Alarming rate. So that that's generally my first sign of like, okay, we Houston there, we have a problem.

Okay. 

Tim Norton: Scrot 

Dani Katz: contractions, attraction, paying attention to how the scrotum is responding. So it's when I go up the legs and also, and not everyone has sensitive nipples, but [00:14:00] it's another way that I can check if they do is to see if the. Them contracts. So 

Tim Norton: if a guy is at home right now listening, and he, I don't know, gets tickled somewhere on his legs or something like that, maybe with a partner maybe by himself and he had a mirror, he might actually be able to.

Dani Katz: Yeah, for sure. So the scrotum is like,  like an octopus or squid, like it's extremely telling, you know, how like, octopi are like very emotional creatures was not aware, but they are, they're extremely, yeah. Emotional creatures.  and they're very expressive. They're, they're sort of like pure emotion anyway.

So yeah, scrotum is, is like a super, super,  telltale sign of sensitivity. So once I flip him over I'm. Pink. My eyes are kind of glued to the scrotum as I'm checking to see the status of how sensitive the client is going to be.  [00:15:00] and then you would ask me when are there? Oh, HIPAA angulation. So HIPAA undulation is another, like, it depends on,  where, and the status of arousal that starts, but it's another means of directing the energy and trying to control the energy.

Sometimes not all the time. Cause sometimes it's just like a G you know, some people are really central and it's just how they're expressing.  but I, a lot of clients with ed, because they're not super sensitive, we'll sort of go overboard on the, I mean, that's my judgment, but like, they'll, they'll be a lot more hip undulation because they're trying to find sensation wherever they can get it.

And they're used to needing to control the energy to get it. So the hip undulating is another sign and,  And when I have a client, who's doing a lot of that. There's a lot of like guiding him to pull back,  just because I want them to be able to feel whether they're on my table. 

Tim Norton: Okay. And so you say you [00:16:00] don't ask guys necessarily at the star, cause they're not going to usually give you, 

Dani Katz: I have, I've gone through phases where I have, and it like only shuts them down.

And anyone like, in my experience, anyone who was addicted to porn or has ed will lie, like yeah. A hundred percent. 

Tim Norton: Okay. And so whether or not they come right out and say it, or whether it just becomes obvious really quickly, what. What,  what's the course of action, like how you've been kind of telling parts of it, but I mean, I guess how long do you spend in each situation?

I know it's going to vary, but are you kind of waiting for signs along the way of, okay, now the scrotum is doing this and now they've finally started breathing again and now they're stopped. Closing their eyes or now they're opening their eyes. Like what, what, how does this go? Yeah, these are 

Dani Katz: good questions.

 so sometimes I'll have guys who will like start with the hip undulations when they're on their stomach. And that can either be a sign of [00:17:00] ed or it can be a sign of like,   sort of like,  like a compulsive sexual,  predilection,  But when I'm flipping them over, I'm, I'm definitely testing. Like, am I dealing with ed?

And to be perfectly honest, like when I get a yes, like this is someone who has erectile dysfunction, especially when they're young, like I'm bummed because I'm like, okay, it's, they're not going to be available to feel a lot. Like I, that's not something I can fix in a single session. It's not something I can fix at all.

 And,  I know it's going to be a lot of more like literally physical work. So it means that I'm going to need to a lot, at least 20 minutes to be working with a penis. And,  and a lot of times it means that there's going to be kind of a battle because especially if it's a younger guy and it's porn induced, they're used to so much [00:18:00] stimulation that that's what they're craving.

And so then I'm up against that. I'm up against that, that craving.  and then I'm up against that, you know, if there is going to be like bucking or undulating or that type of thing.  so my general way of doing it is if someone has a D and I'm just, I know your show is about, you know, all sorts of it and what I'm mostly.

Dealing with when I see it as porn addiction.  so it's, it's from someone who's been masturbating,  a lot and it's generally in a very specific way.  so generally with the same hand, it's generally the same angle, the same grip, like there's, it's just,  there's a lot of it's very,  homogenous. So, what I'm up against is certain channels and pathways and neural networks and what we would call in like the Tundra, world noughties being [00:19:00] overstimulated.

So then what I'm doing is I'm trying to wake up other dormant parts of the penis that haven't gotten a lot of stimulation and I'm, and then the gist is to, to wake those up and to bring their attention and bring those back on line.  But a lot of the times when I'm dealing with someone who has a D, because they're used to a harder grip and more stimulation, they think they don't want that and it can be annoying.

 and I'm, I'm kind of going to worst case scenarios.  so, so what I'll be doing is, is touching the penis in ways that I'm. I know it's not used to being touched, so I'm not going for like a sexual stroke. I'm not, again, I'm not glitter oriented. I'm not trying to get anywhere. I'm just trying to bring it online because there's so much pleasure.

There's so many nerve endings in the whole area and it's, so I'm just like trying to kind of like,  like kind of scramble, like throw a wrench in what they're used [00:20:00] to, and it's almost like throwing chaos into the mix. If that makes sense.  and then the other, yeah, your thing is, and this is a little bit more of a negotiation is,  trying to encourage men to close their eyes and connect to the physical sensation.

So I'll guide them to like, keep your attention focused on the point of contact between my fingers and your penis,  versus like staring at my ass and then creating fantasies from there. Cause then they're not. You know, then you're empowering the visual sense, which is if it's coming from watching porn is already overstimulated.

And while I understand that men are visual creatures, it's nice to have a lot of options in the wheelhouse so that there's not only one or a couple of ways of getting off. So it's encouraging them to like really focus on the tactile sensation and really to narrow their attention so that they can start to cause if they can even notice.

Since then, you know, tiny hints of [00:21:00] sensation where bef, you know, if even 10 minutes before they'd thought they couldn't feel anything we're making progress.  but the other thing that I'm up against is realistically men are coming to me to like be healed or, you know, on a conscious level, like generally to be totally honest, they're coming to get off and I'm guiding them into a different,  Into a different relationship with sexual energy.

So. If I'm dealing with someone who has like a really extreme case of ed and a lot of porn addiction, there's like maybe his desire for more simulation or raunchier simulation or faster this or that. And I'm trying to like bring more wholeness and more expansiveness to the experience.  and then it's just like a lot of sort of Def maneuvering to get him to surrender.

To me and to my, to my touch and my authority, and to trust that I'm going to take him someplace really amazing. That's [00:22:00] better than he understands if he can just get out of the way. But if I'm dealing with someone and it's a first time client and there's ed,  it's just trying to wake up centers because more, more simulation and visiting.

You know, having a stranger touch your penis, I don't think is the best way to go about healing. That I really think the best way to deal with EDD is to just stop touching your penis for awhile. And then,  you know, I'm a fan of sensate exercises,  which I am. Tossing into the mix, but it's, there's so many different variables that we're not talking about.

And they're kind of assumed that I'm kind of dancing around. Did that make any sense? 

Tim Norton: It did. It did. And you know, you're basically in so many words, it's, it's not, there's not a one size fits all solution for this. Then when you say throwing chaos into the mix, I, I think of, well, the first thing you said was the grip.

And there, there was,  speaking of vice, I think there was an article about the death grip syndrome a few years ago. [00:23:00]  a great article. And I don't know that we yet have had a proper empirical study on this, but there's this idea that guys are clenching their penises. So. Intensely and so hard that a, vagina's never going to be able to replicate that sensation.

And so they're, they're kind of ruining themselves for, for intercourse.  and what you're seeing is not only,  a grip, but a very consistent stroke. Yes. And. Now you're you're I, you know, these guys aren't touching their own penises in the session, but you're kind of opening their eyes,  and their bodies to this idea that there are other ways to touch the penis.

And there are other places that are going to give them joy and pleasure and not. And so is it, are there points in,  in like the, the tantric. Realm. Are there little spots on there? Like, like with acupuncture, 

Dani Katz:  spots and I think, I mean, there are just, there are just so many and everyone's [00:24:00] mean even though penises generally like the same, you know, they're obviously far they're much less,  wildcards in like a vagina, but,  But there's so much there.

That's unexplored and it's again, it's like once we take the goal of ejaculation off the table and it's just what feels good. It's a whole different realm of play and different textures of touch in different, different areas of sensitivity. So,  like one, one big thing is I encourage all my clients to, to masturbate with their non-dominant hand.

 Just to wake up those different, you know, it's just like, if you sleep on your stomach and you turn your head the same way, you know, every night for however many years, you go to turn your head the other way and you don't really have as much range of motion. And you're not really that controlling when we have it all with anything we're doing with it.

Dominant hand or dominant side all the time. So if you're jerking off like three times a [00:25:00] day, five times a day, whatever it is with the same hand, the same way, the same torque, the same angle. You're, you're stimulating the same narrow pathways. There are, there are infinite. You know, like there are infinite combinations of touch and texture of touch that will give you sensation that you can't even imagine.

 so yeah, it's, it's touching the penis in ways that they don't expect another big red flag. And this is a red flag, not just with clients, but with love is like, I like it this way. Like, Well, you like it that way. If you want to go to the same place and have the same thing, but if you want to go someplace, you've never been, you actually don't know what you like.

 and so a big part of it is just like getting the clients who avail themselves to a new experience and to not have to control it and to not think that we're trying to get anywhere.  so yeah, there are specific points, but also when it comes to that, every penis is different and that's where it just becomes super [00:26:00] intuitive and being guided of, you know, Where and how, and, and just to be really playful and really creative.

And I think that's another piece. And again, a piece with like lovers is just to be not worried about taking the partner to orgasm, but just like to be brave and playful, not trying to get anywhere.  I think that just opens up a lot more places. And I know like for me, if I'm with someone and they're like, how do you like it?

And I'm like, I don't know what our alchemy is. Like, let's just. Let's just not try to get anywhere and like, just play for the sake of playing. Does that make sense? I 

Tim Norton: love it. I love it. I don't know what our alchemy is. Yeah, let's go. 

Dani Katz: The goal thing is, and that's the whole like masculine approach and like the patriarchal lens through which we're all operating.

Like, let's take the goal off the table. I mean, unless you're like on a deadline and like someone has to get pregnant and you're ovulating now, like then there's a goal, but otherwise in [00:27:00] general, like why can't we just have fun and, and. Be in that liminal. And I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with the limit all around because of the power of sexual energy.

And because it's going to take us places where we haven't been in. So a lot of that is just trying to control so that we can stay in the familiar. I 

Tim Norton: love it. So we keep coming back to. Porn and how it seems to, and that's what your article was about. I think that it was called porn is killing, is ruining my job.

Right.  so you you've,  I, it sounds like you've gotten to a point where you can just see it in somebody's body. They don't even have to tell you how much porn they're they're taking in.  how do you feel about porn 

Dani Katz: in general? At this point, I hate it. Like I have really strong feelings about porn also.

Cause,  cause I've had partners who have been addicted to porn and I just see [00:28:00] how thoroughly destructive it is.  yeah. On so many levels, like there was a moment. When the internet was new. And I thought, well, porn is cool because it's taking the negative stigma out of a lot of practices and it's sort of leveling the playing field of like, Oh, look, we're all pervy.

And it's a lot more normal. And I think that piece of porn can be healthy, but we've gone way past it. And when I've watched porn, which I pretty much detest,  Like, they're not doing it right. Like I watch it. I'm like, that's not how you're supposed to touch a penis. That's not how I want anyone touching me.

Like all the movements are so exaggerated for theatricality so that it looks good on camera and people are taking that as instructional. So they're learning to fuck terribly.  and. So porn just like online dating is set up for the dopamine [00:29:00] response and for the dopamine addiction. And so I'm seeing more and more men, I mean, not just issues with EDD, but like they don't want to date because it's easier to not have to deal with women and their periods and their moods and their mercurial natures.

And it's just easier to jerk off to porn.  there's the fact that it's like really narrowing are. Tolerance for aesthetic differences, you know, that women are supposed to look a certain way and pubic hair is bad and you're supposed to come on a girl's face and just all sorts of weird stuff and just the ubiquity of it.

And the fact that we, I don't think we as humans have evolved to a place where we can control ourselves with it. So like, I'll do it on Spotify or. Hear a song that I like and I'll overplay it and I'll play it 24, seven for a week and ruin it. And that's how we are with porn. You know, like you'd said earlier, like we, we can't have nice things.

Not that porn is necessarily a nice thing.  but I see it. I see it in my clients. I have, you know, I'm a coach as well. So I, I have so many male [00:30:00] clients who just don't want to deal with women. They're getting less and less practiced at it. You know, like when we were kids to see. A nipple, like you had to work hard, like aside from stealing your dad's Playboy, you had to like date a girl and you had to like, get to know her and you had to court her and these days, like it's just so out there it's.

So at the ready that I feel like we're dropping the ball on how we're relating to one another.  And it bums me out. And then just as far as my job, I mean, just stimulating someone who is addicted to porn, like it's cardio, like it's a lot of work. It's a lot of it is not fun. 

Tim Norton: Like cardio that I don't know.

That's really telling. Yeah. 

Dani Katz: I mean, and even like having had partners who are addicted to porn, it's. It's really unfortunate because porn, like on some level it's dehumanizing women, right? Like they're just [00:31:00] crevices and holes to be penetrated. And then, so if men don't have a lot of sensitivity, there's going to be a lot of like fast pounding and that doesn't feel good.

Like again, It's a fine thing to have in the wheelhouse when the time is right. But if that's your only play, if that's your only move, that's a problem.  and then, you know, when I've been with men like that, it's just like, I'm, I could be some random sex doll. Like my, my personhood has gone away. It's just like needing all this like force and friction and it's gross.

I'm not into 

Tim Norton: it. So I'm sitting here wondering, do you have multiple sessions with them? Guys sometimes are they, they come back a lot, a lot of regulars. And so will you work on them watching less porn or can you see a difference over time? Are they, they go home after the first session and you say, might want to use these back on the pouring.

Have you seen differences with guys [00:32:00] who've kind of worked?  

Dani Katz: I'd like to say yes. Okay.  My general rule is that, unless they're asking me, I'm not going to say anything about it, unless they're in their twenties.  because it's a slippery slope and it's not a sustainable pathway.  but there's a lot of shame around it.

So it's rare. I mean, it has happened, but it's rare that I'll ask someone like, Hey, I'm just curious, how much porn are you watching? Where sh you know, shame doesn't seep in or. And I, and I, you know, because of that, I pulled back because I don't want anyone to feel bad, but I think there's still this unfortunate stigma around porn and like, acknowledging that it's a problem.

And I've had, like, I had one guy who was like, I've never watched porn in my life. I'm like, well, that's not true. That's impossible. Yeah. So I think there's like a shame and an embarrassment that at least in the context that I'm working, I, I actually don't have a lot of men who are [00:33:00] wanting to go there.

Tim Norton: Okay. They're just there to really. Yeah. 

Dani Katz: I mean, unless they come to me because they're like, I have EDIS as something you can help me with. That is something that happens, but they don't want to hear, stop watching porn and stop touching your pee. You know, it's like, I don't think they want to hear, because I recommend taking six months off masturbating.

I think that's 

Tim Norton: six months. Wow. Yes. Six months to let everything rewire to let everybody EV everything go back online. Blank 

Dani Katz: slate. Yeah, because like, as much as the sensate exercises are going to be much more effective when we've pulled back from the addiction to the simulation. So there really is only so much I can do as you know, to really help someone heal.

And I think it requires, I mean, also it depends on how far gone. They, they are. But yeah, I think six months. And I think just that reaction is indicative of like, if that's that freaky, like that's something to take a look at. 

[00:34:00] Tim Norton: Hmm. Okay. These are tips from a tantrica. Maybe that's going to be the title of the episode, but I'm mindful of your scrotum and take six months off.

And then any other ones that just jump out there. You're just like, gosh, if every guy just knew this, 

Dani Katz: I think definitely. Masturbate with your non-dominant hand and, and definitely play with different grips and different angles and like, get curious about your own penis and like parts of it that you're not used to touching and like parts of your pelvis and parts of like, just the whole thing.

There's such a, like, Magnificent treasure trove of different possible sensations. So also to just like experiment with taking the goal off the table and just getting curious and getting to know yourself and D and also like, Masturbate without porn, you know, like what is it like to just be in a realm of tactile sensation without the visual stimulation?

Because if you need [00:35:00] anything to get off, then you're not sovereign. Then your power is, is being given away to this external thing. And you're limiting your. The availability of sexual experience and of pleasure. So if there's anything that you need to get off, then experiment with taking that thing away, 

Tim Norton: then what are we supposed to masturbate to 

Dani Katz: sensation?

Tim Norton: Hmm. Tell me more about 

Dani Katz: that. Well, I mean, you're masturbating because it's a physical set you're stimulating. Nerves and noughties and, you know, magical portals in your penis. That's, that's a tactile thing. If you're reliant on visual stimulation, then a part of you is dissociating from that experience, right?

Because if you think of the realm of multitasking, if you're deferring to a fantasy, then you're not really being entirely present with the point of contact between [00:36:00] your. Hand and your penis. So with your non-dominant hand and, and experimenting with other places, you're going to start to open up and activate realms of tactile sensation that you didn't realize were there.

And so if there's that reticence it's because the neural networks that are, that are linking. Sexual stimulation to visual stimulation,  are overdeveloped, right? Like those groups, those are grooves in the brain.  and so anytime we have grooves in the brain that are, that are,  No, that we keep, we keep on stimulating them.

They get deeper and deeper and deeper. And then there are these other potential neural pathways called like not needing visual stimulation that are weaker and haven't had any attention.  and so that's when, like I said, like, that's why I'll speak to guys who I know are in their twenties. Cause I'm like you're too young to have such a limited bandwidth of sexual [00:37:00] experience for yourself.

You know, like if you continue down this pathway, it's just going to get narrower and narrower. That's not going to be super fun.  So, yeah, just masturbate, you know, it's like play around with different types of lube or oil or,  you know, if you want to add something granular to try that, you know, like, what's that, like, if I add some, I don't know what that would be, you know, but there are different, like a bath salt or something.

I like a bath salt, or like, Baking soda or sand or pearls or crystals, or, you know, like I know a lot of guys who play with different, you know, that's sort of which year, but like,  but the sensation of different crystals, but yeah, like to pull out of needing to continue to.  deepen those neurological grooves between the visual and the physical, and to just pull back and start playing with the tactile, because it's more empowering to not need that.

Like, it's always the guys who, with the ed and the porn [00:38:00] addictions, who like, as soon as we're dealing in the realm of the genitals, like their eyes are wide open and they're staring at my ass and it's, I mean, My personal feelings about it are irrelevant. It's just a bummer to need that because I really empower my clients to be sovereign and to have like the most expansive wheelhouse of sexual stimulation and fun available to them as possible.

And if they need visual stimulation, then they're missing out on a whole realm of tactile sensation that could really be fun and exciting. 

Tim Norton: Yeah. And I think. Tactile sensation. We're always coming back to mindfulness and you made a comment a minute ago about drawing somebody's awareness of their hand in the sensations of their hand to touching their penis and.

Well, you know, one thing that's very limiting about sex therapy [00:39:00] is as I'm not going to see how mindful somebody is when they're actually masturbating or when they're having sex. And that's why I always like to talk to hands-on people about these kinds of things. So will you actually,  verbally instruct a guy or just kind of teach him, Hey, you know, while.

While I'm grabbing your penis right there. You kind of dissociated, you tuned out right there. And are there ways that you can kind of guide him back into his body and then teach him that? How does, how does that go down? Cause I kind of want, I want to think that what's happening is this, guy's getting this great tutorial on, Hey, you just tune the hell out.

You just left, put your hand on your penis right now and feel it and get present to it and be present to it. Does that happen as my, 

Dani Katz:  it's happened? Few times,  more so when I'm pulling their attention back from contracting around that, that's what happens more often. And [00:40:00] then I will. Pull their hand towards their parent name.

Cause that's when you could feel that sort of squeezing and that tension, and 

Tim Norton: then it might remind listeners of what 

Dani Katz: the paradigm is. So that's that sort of,  like track of skin between the anus and the scrotum.  and that's what clenches,  when we're contracting around the, the sensation,  I will, I will more verbally guide them.

I mean, that's, the other thing is when men are in, when men are stimulated, it's not a great time to teach them there. They're not in that. Part of their brain, they're having a different experience. That's a good point.  but I willing, it's mostly with regular clients where like, I will, you know, like when I do this thing or do this, or try this, another thing,  is to not just use the Palm of your hand, but like use the backside of your fingers, use the side of your fingers.

Like [00:41:00] try like really counterintuitive ways of touch and parts of you. To wake up different sensations. So that's why my number one is just start masturbating with your non-dominant hand because that, that clumsiness is going to start to,  it's going to inspire someone to get creative and figure out different ways because we're, we are used to like a narrow bandwidth of simulation.

So in trying to find the stimulation that will encourage the man to sort of engage his own creativity in. In doing it a different way, if that makes sense. But,  yeah, I'm not specifically telling people how to touch themselves. I'm more and that's the other thing I'm just like empowering them to get creative and to just get playful.

Tim Norton: Okay. So. As a therapist, I'm always thinking about emotion and so far. Oh, the emotion of hunger might be [00:42:00] upon us.  Nope. They're delaying the only emotion we've really talked about so far besides lust is shame, but I got to imagine. That guys come in with all kinds of things. This is an intimate experience, super intimate.

So what are you seeing emotionally from men? And, and could you comment on that? Is that too broad of a question, but, 

Dani Katz:  well I'll, I'll answer with what comes to mind and if I'm too broad, we can both collaborate on narrowing it.  but,  I've noticed in the past, like six months. And I've actually reached out to other tantric print practitioners to see if they're seeing this as well.

 a lot more anxiety, a lot more like nervousness.  and like a sheepishness like, that's, I've seen an uptick in that recently.  but a lot of times it's loneliness. [00:43:00]  A lot of it. I see this with so many young guys,  like insecurity, like they're not hot enough to have a sexual partner or mostly what I see are our emotions that are making the men like small and not super confident.

I think that's what, or, or like,  you know, neglect in, in long-term partnerships. I, I deal with a lot of like the darker sort of like sad. Sad, lonely emotions, I think. 

Tim Norton: And does that seem to directly relate to the quality of interaction or any kind of penile?

Dani Katz:  

Tim Norton: do you, are, do you see depression having an effect on erections or on sexuality? 

Dani Katz: Yeah, I definitely do. I mean, it's, it's. I see, I see depression, I see anxiety. And then [00:44:00] the worst is just like the consciousness of it. And the like, if it were just depression, I don't know if it would that be a big deal, but then I think there's like a judgment on being depressed or feeling bad about being depressed that compounds it and make it worse.

It's like mind fuckery, you know, it's like the more, I'm sorry I keep doing that.  the more in the head the client is, I think that's where,  Erections can be compromised. 

Tim Norton: Okay.  but you can still do good work. I can always do good work. Okay. Yeah. Sometimes guys who are just long-term depressed, they write themselves off as I just, I can't, you know, 

Dani Katz: that's the other thing is like, again, in taking the goal off the table and the fact that my sexuality isn't on the table, so there's no one to please it's like, All that matters.

Is, does this feel good? Like even if a penis is flacid, like touching in a loving, like yummy way is going to feel good. If we allow ourselves, you know, mentally to not [00:45:00] judge that experience and not expect the penis to be doing something different, if the client can be okay with. Being depressed, being sad, being lonely, having a soft penis and just still be open to receiving whatever sensation is available to.

I feel like that's very healing.  it's the judgment. Yeah. The expectation of the penis needing to respond a certain way that I think compounds the issue and, and makes it way 

Tim Norton: worse. And I bet. In tantric terms is that I'm always thinking about the judgment. You know, I'm always trying to draw guys' attention to the judgment, but I got to imagine that you would say that could affect the sexual energy, that judgment of 

Dani Katz: sure.

Sure.  a million percent affects the sexual energy and, and like kind of pervs it. And it's, I mean, so much of. The work that, that I do as a tantrika and also as a [00:46:00] coach is just allowing space for all of it. And there's never any judgment. It's like, okay, this is how your penis wants to show up today.

That's must be perfect. Cause that's what's happening, you know, so it's not a problem. And,  To just have that allowing for all of it to be okay. And it's like, okay, if we're dealing with a really flacid penis,  this is what we're dealing with. And it's, and it's also the big pieces for the client to be okay with not getting anywhere and like, well, this is how we're going to play now.

And then I'll, you know, I'm going to be approaching a flacid penis in a totally different way. It's not going to look like it looks on porn.  But there's going to be benefit and it's going to generate a lot of healing energy as long as we can be okay with everything being as it is. 

Tim Norton: Yeah. And I want to go back to one thing that you said regarding your sexuality being off the table,  which is such a nice space for somebody to be able to enter [00:47:00] into, not because.

A guy is never going to pay attention to his partner, but just that we can trade. We can have my night, your night, we can explore each other's bodies. We can, we can take penetrative sex off the table for X number of months. And I, again, I, in an idealized world, I want to think of. The guys who are coming in, who have partners and whether or not they're telling their partners about what they're doing, but that they're taking what they're learning and they're going home and they're saying, okay, so sweetie, tonight, it's going to be all about me.

And next week it's going to be all about you. And then we're going to rotate like this and, you know, and you'll take care of me. And I just, just, just,  just, it just occurred to me. Right. I, you know, he's not going to say I learned this from my local tantrica,  And, and that can be so empowering to just.

De-stressed just take it all off your mind and then whatever you guys do in that moment is going to be pleasurable.  do you think it ever happens? 

[00:48:00] Dani Katz: Yeah, I think it happens a lot and I actually have, I have a lot of clients who reach out to me because they want to learn things to take into their partnerships.

And I also think, like, I think it's very codependent that like both partners have to get off and that's just assumed and that everything is equal all the time. And I think that it's unfortunate because. I'll just speak for myself like that type of multitasking. Like doesn't.  I'm not great at it. If I find being stimulated at the same time, as I'm stimulating, I'm not giving as much presence.

I'm not as aware because I'm distracted by the awesomeness that I'm feeling.  and it's nice to take that expectation of everything being like even Steven all the time off the table so that partners can learn to receive differently and learn to give differently and to mix it up. So I actually have a lot of, of clients who.

Are coming to me to bring stuff into their 

Tim Norton: partnership. Okay. Well, I think this is all [00:49:00] really helpful and really, really great insight. And I really appreciate it. Anything else that comes to mind that you want? Well, the guys out there to know about their sexuality. I know you could probably talk about this for sure.

Dani Katz: I mean, nothing really comes to mind except like really, really, really, really, really stop watching porn really like really stop watching porn 

Tim Norton: and you've heard it from Dani.  thank you so much. For all of the listeners, which is my mom and my closest friends currently. And,  and I hope to keep having these hard conversations with you guys.

All right. Take care.

Shout outs to the sex positive community, including sex educators, sex therapists, or sex coaches, other fellow sex podcasters, sex surrogates, academics, sexual health, medical community, sex workers, the tantra community, and everybody else involved with having hard [00:51:00] conversations. .