TODAY'S GUEST: Dalychia Saah, sexuality educator and co-founder of Afrosexology

I'm extremely happy to welcome Dalychia Saah to Hard Conversations!

Dalychia Saah (she/her) is a sexuality educator, professor, writer, and speaker. Through her words and work, Dalychia facilitates space for people to connect deeper with their desires for their body, relationships, life, and our world. She is passionate about people unlearning oppressive norms that are externalized, inter-personalized, and internalized that keep us from moving towards a more liberated way of being. Dalychia believes that systematic forms of oppression can be overthrown by a reclamation of intra- and interpersonal power.

Dalychia is the co-founder of Afrosexology, a pleasure based sex education platform that creates educational content and workshops to center the pleasure, empowerment, and liberation of Black people.  Afrosexology’s work covers topics such as masturbation, self love, enhancing communication in relationships, radical twerking, racialized sexual oppression, body agency and much more. Through Afrosexology, she has created space for tens of thousands of people of color to reclaim their sexuality and body agency.

Dalychia is a lecturer professor at the Brown School of Social Work at Washington University in St. Louis, where she teaches graduate level courses in social theory, social justice, and sexuality education. She is also a sought after facilitator and keynote speaker for conferences and events related to social justice and/or sexuality.

Dalychia’s work and words have been featured in HuffPost, Teen Vogue, Allure Magazine, Vibe Magazine, Glamour Magazine, Harper’s Bazaar, Playboy Magazine, Broadly, and others. She has received the Phenomenal Woman Award, Spirit of Social Work Award, Rev. Robert Gilbert Advocacy Award, and Academy for Leadership & Civic Engagement Leadership Award.

• WEBSITE:

  http://dalychiasaah.com/

• https://www.afrosexology.com/

YOU'LL LEARN

• The importance of sexology and sex education

• The impact of racial constructs on sexuality

• Afrosexology

• The detriments of body shaming

• The importance of talking about sexual pleasure

• The importance of letting passion flourish beyond the bedroom

• How to redefine sex

• How to broaden the conversation about sex

• Insights on sexuality

• The importance of not faking orgasms

• Positive sexual messages

• That you have permission to have great sex!

• And more!

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING to my male sexuality and sex therapy podcast!

To get more hard conversations sent directly to your device as episodes become available, you can subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher!

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And lastly, if you have any questions (or would like answers to previously submitted voicemail questions!), head on over to Tim’s website.

About the Show

Introducing Hard Conversations, a podcast about male sexuality, and all things erectile, from the latest natural erectile dysfunction treatment to the best ed medical treatment. Therapist Tim Norton expands the conversation about male sexuality, adds context to why we struggle as a society to have hard conversations and breaks down how in a sex-positive environment there really is no room for taboos, judgment, or shame when it comes to penises.

YOUR online sex therapy and couple’s therapy HOST:

Tim Norton is a sex positive sex therapist working in private practice. He offers online therapy, online sex therapy, online sex coaching, and therapy and coaching for somatic symptom disorder.

Tim obtained his bachelor’s and master’s degrees from the University of Southern California. Tim is a proud member of American Association of Sex Counselors, Educators, and Therapists (AASECT), the Los Angeles Sexological Association, and works part-time with the Pain Psychology Center in Beverly Hills.

Hard Conversations Podcast Transcript

Tim Norton: Hello, and welcome to Hard Conversations. My next guest, and I'm really excited about it,  Dalychia Saah, using the pronouns She and her is a sexuality educator, professor writer, speaker, and the co-founder of Afrosexology, a pleasure based sex education platform that creates educational content and workshops to center the pleasure, empowerment and liberation of black people. Dalychia  is also a lecture professor at the Brown school of social work at Washington university in St. Louis, where she teaches courses. In graduate level, social [00:01:00] theory, social justice and sexuality education. She is also a sought after facilitator and keynote speaker for conferences and events related to social justice and or sexuality.

Dalycia’s work and words have been featured in Huff post teen Vogue allure magazine, vibe, magazine, glamour magazine, Harper's bizarre Playboy broadly, and others. She has received the phenomenal woman award. Spirit of social work award, Reverend Robert Gilbert advocacy award and Academy for leadership and civic engagement leadership award.

Thank you so much for joining us today on hard conversations, Dalycia. 

Dalychia Saah: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited for this 

Tim Norton: conversation. So I just read your bio to everybody. And I just wanted to, to ask, like what got you into all of this? Yeah. 

Dalychia Saah:  it's, it's like one of those things. But like now I'm able to look back and be like, Oh my [00:02:00] gosh, it totally makes sense that this is what I'm doing in my life, but like fought it the entire path.

 so growing up in a family that was pretty. I mean, I had like traditional, like conservative values around sex and relationships and dating a lot of it rooted in religion.  but my parents are both like scientists. Like my dad's a doctor, my mom's a scientist. And so there, they taught us to be really inquisitive.

They're like, if we had a question, we are, their response is usually just to like send us somewhere to find the answer before they would give us the response, except for when it came to like religion question about religion and questions about sex. That was like, no. Conversations shut down, do not talk about it.

But unfortunately for them, they had already given us all these features, research skills. So like being the nerdy person, I was, I just feel like spend so much time, like looking up, like how do you know someone likes you? How do you hold someone's hand? What do you do? Like all this all from that all the way to like,  looking up, how do you give a blow job?

Like just all [00:03:00] of it. Like just not really knowing. And so I was always the person in my. High school who was like, let me tell you all the fun facts about sex stuff. And like, it was very inquisitive prior to me even having many sexual experiences.  but still, I always like really denied it as like a career path.

Cause like, this is not a thing that people do. Like no one really tells you about like, Oh, you can be a doctor, a lawyer, or a sexologist like that does not come up in many family conversations. So. Through lots of winding ways. I just like finally sat down and was like, this is the thing that's been drawing at me since like elementary school, middle school, high school college.

And I've been like, I can't do it. It's not a path sort a thing. And so when we finally sat down and I was like, let's just create something me and my friend Raphael created Afro sexology and that. The feeling we get when we do that work is so affirming that I was like, yeah, Oh, this is the thing I was supposed to be doing.

And I reflect back on all the people along the way, who were like, you're supposed to do this. And I'm like, I can't do this. It's not a, is that a job? It's not a thing that. Makes sense. And I really just [00:04:00] struggled because it was something that I was like in the black community with everything we have going on.

Like I do not know of talking about sex as a thing that's going to like heal us.  so I was really resistant and honestly, it was just like, this is something that like white people have the time to do. And I would tell my mentors, like I don't have, I don't have the privilege to do this. And it really took like me reading Audre Lorde's uses of the erotic.

That really helped me to be like, okay, a part of our wellness, a part of our healing. It's also our relationship to our body or to our sexuality. And that there is. Space for this conversation and the work we've been able to do with Afros ecology, I should say affirm more and more that this is needed.

It's important. 

Tim Norton: And when was that moment? Like how long ago?  

Dalychia Saah: so that was like right after grad school. So five years 

Tim Norton: ago, five years ago, and five years ago where you read Audrey Lorde and you were like, okay, now this, I see this as important work. 

Dalychia Saah: Yeah. Yeah. So part that denying it. 

Tim Norton: Okay. [00:05:00] Yeah. Five years of, of Afro sexology, where you were also,  I don't know, you could almost call it spiritually invested in it and politically saying this is the right word.

Yeah. 

Dalychia Saah: Yes. Yeah. It took. It was like, it was just a lot of different things. It was that it was like,  we're based in St. Louis. So this is where Mike Brown was murdered and the police brutality and all the rights. And just seeing the way that black bodies are still constantly, we,  in danger and just like the toll that like all of that was taking on our, on our bodies and on our health, I was like, Oh, okay.

Masturbation is something that feels good, but it also leaves it like gives you. Endorphins that you need to like, feel like a high again in a, in a positive feelings to keep you going when you're going outside and marching against police officers all the time. So it was a lot of things coming together to where I was really seeing that like, the work we're talking about is not just theoretic, but it also lives in our body.

And our body carries the [00:06:00] trauma and that like reclaiming our body and having agency over our body is like a way to survive, resists, thrive, and this like. World that we have set up. Hmm. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: And when you have Afro sexology workshops and seminars, does it, does it get just as political as it is sexual?

Does it, does all that stuff also 

Dalychia Saah: come up? It does. It does. I think it's,  I think that's something that's really beautiful about. So many of the identities that a lot of people hold, especially people who are marginalized in many ways is that there's, it's really hard to separate. How politically are our identities have been constructed and used against us from us talking about our liberation and our joy and our pleasure.

So it comes up and it gets woven in these really beautiful ways. Or at one minute, we're just having this very like, Very intentional intro focused conversation around like orgasm and not knowing if I [00:07:00] know how to ask for it, feeling like we need a fake or you got to it's all this stuff to like going back to macro and thinking about all the other things that we fake in society to survive as women, as people of color as whoever in this world.

And so it, it, it oftentimes really just like balances in a really beautiful way, but we try to create our spaces. I first started in particular. To where we are talking more about pleasure, because there are so many spaces where, where, like we are talking about politics and how to resist all the time. And so we want to create spaces where it could just be like sheer joy.

Tim Norton: Yeah, well, that's, that's wonderful. And I heard you, so for the listeners out there, I saw delicious speak at a, at a conference, which is a as a conference of sex education S  sex counselors, sex therapists, sex educators,  In a room full of hundreds of people. It might've been a thousand people on there and she killed it.

It was just an awesome talk that she gave. And I already, I already knew about Afro sexology and I was really excited when I found out that you [00:08:00] were the speaker.  but in your talk, you talked about like this two year break that you took, that was pleasure based. And I want to just hear a little bit more about what that was like and what you learned during that time.

Dalychia Saah: Yeah, yeah. That. Has been such like such a life altering experience. So what ended up happening was that, like I had all these internalize shame based messages around masturbation that it was like something that like people who are raised as women don't do all of these like messages that like it's, it's not what you do once you're partnered.

It's not whatever. And so I have like, over by that time, I had like worked through. A lot of that shame to come to the place where I was like masturbating. I was like, this is my favorite thing ever. I love this. It's great. But it also was really affirming to be like that. I don't have to wait for a partner or wait for somebody else to make me feel this.

I can do this for myself, by myself,  with myself. And that, that, that understanding really inspired me to like, think about other [00:09:00] aspects of my life. But what happened at the two year point? It was like, I was, we were really like deep into Afro sexology. It was like this amazing work that we were doing. I was working a full-time job.

So I'm waking up at 4:00 AM working an Afro sexology, going to my 9:00 AM job coming home, working after sexology. And I was like the feeling that I have while doing an Afro sexology was like, Such a pleasure. It felt so orgasmic. It was, I mean, I would hop out of bed at 4:00 AM, like ready to go. And it was becoming once I had that positive, like really pleasurable feeling, it became harder and harder and harder to go to my job.

And it wasn't that my job was like, awful. It just like did not compare. Like I just was like, I don't feel challenged. I don't feel energized. I don't feel excited. I don't feel like the way that I feel when I'm working on Afro sexology. And I just started really questioning like. Is that okay. Or do I want to take the risk of like, feeling like I can do something that feels better?

Right.  from that, that led me know, like quitting my job, which was a really [00:10:00] hard decision because everyone was like, like from the time I was young, I was told that like working a nine to five is supposed to kind of suck that like you're supposed to hate your job. That's a good thing in our culture as Americans that like.

You know, we have whole TV shows around people who hate their work life. And so it was like something that I had normal life that I think by creating our soldier was the first time where I really questioned, like, does this have to be my normal, like, can I have a job that I feel excited to be a part of that I still fully seen and I can be my full self and I get to be creative.

 and so I just started like making moves towards that when it came to like, My job. And then my friends and then the food that I ate and the clothes that I wear. And I was just like, what does it mean to like actively move towards the thing that bring me pleasure? The things that are so good instead of just settling for.

These mediocre experiences. Cause I was at a place where I was like, I don't want to settle for mediocre sex. So why do I settle for mediocre work life, mediocre friendships, mediocre like X activities that things that I didn't want to [00:11:00] do. And I recognized that a lot of it was my conditioning, this since a really young age, you're like raised to kind of just like.

Settle and just like go for what is given to you.  and to not ask for more, like, there were so many times when I was told, like my dreams are too big, I'm asking for too much. I like want to, I'm demanding too much of my country. I'm demanding too much of the da. And like at a certain point, I was like, actually I think that like, it's okay to like dream big and to ask for what you want and to move towards that.

So that journey has been super transformative for me. And like, Now I'm like a lecture at a university and I absolutely love, love, love my job. Like I am, I like teach it til eight 30 at night and I leave feeling so energized. Like it's like the best feeling in the world. I, my students are amazing. I love the, the intellectual discourse we have in the classroom, the work that we're producing.

And it's just been so rewarding to, like, for me to question, what I would say is like capitalistic and what I think some feminists would say is, is, [00:12:00]  Paternalistic is that we are so focused. So what are we doing? What are you doing? Like, what are you producing? And I think this way of life really helped me to think about the process more than the product and the feeling more than the doing.

So it was like, how do I feel when I'm doing this job? I feel as I'm having this meal, I don't feel as I'm having this conversation, like what topics I want to really start talking. Like I had to tell my friends, like, I don't want to gossip anymore. Like, I feel like shit after this, I feel like really like, self-conscious, I don't want to keep doing this.

Like, why keep doing these activities? That don't feel good. So that intentionality for those two years has gotten me into a place where I feel like I trust myself so much more. I trust my decisions. I trust my know, like I know how to honor my, no, my gut reaction of like, actually don't want to do this, or I don't want to.

Put up with this and I've learned to like, pursue the things that I really want to say yes, to like the traveling more and like honoring more of my dreams and just say the things that I'm like, that I've told myself that I can't do because I'm too young or I'm, whatever, whatever. [00:13:00] And I'm just going after it.

And it feels really good. It feels really, it's been a really amazing journey 

Tim Norton: and what a wonderful parallel for just pursuing pleasure in the bedroom. Just, just. Prioritizing the things that you want, the people that you want to be with,  the way you want to spend that time. And it's, it's almost like a meta version of that.

And because maybe a lot of the time. You know, people bring in this directive of, okay, we've got to figure out how to have a spontaneous or, or simultaneous orgasm,  through these very one or two or three different ways and within a certain timeframe and without any regard for right. How are the sheets right now?

And am I a little hungry or thirsty and all of those things. So I bet. When you're doing that 24 seven, I bet it really shines through when you're, you're talking about work [00:14:00] and you're talking about pleasure and sexuality with, with students and, and people taking your courses and seminars. Yeah. 

Dalychia Saah: I think the one word that people use to describe me a lot, there was the comment of you're so passionate and I'm like, well, I think it's because I've, I've like in our society, we limit passion to the bedroom instead of like lending it, be through our entire lives.

And so. I wish everyone that we came in contact with who were seeing them and doing the thing that they feel most passionate about because our interactions with them will be so different. And that would, that would definitely influence our friendships, our relationships, our sexual experiences. If we're interacting with people who like steal that passion throughout their entire life, instead of feeling they'd have to dim their light everywhere else.

And then they have this one space where they're allowed to like light up. So I love it. I also had a student who like, had this amazing activity one day where she brought in a list of like feeling words. And she was like, like, she was like, how do you want to feel when you're having [00:15:00] sex? Like, do you want to feel aggressive today?

Do you want to feel naughty? Do you want to sow romance? Do you want to feel,  like a T like, how do you want to feel and then to build actions off of that? And I really love that because I do think so often we're like, well, we're going to do this, this and this. But the idea of like tapping into the feeling, which can be totally different.

Like if I want to feel a animalistic, maybe we're going to set up for like play fighting or like wrestling, which is different than if I want to feel romance. If you're going to start off with like some music, you know? And so just thinking about how I want to feel when I'm doing things, as I definitely impacted so many aspects of my life.

And are you able to 

Tim Norton: impart that to your. Did the students like, do they, do you feel like, how do they, how do they take this information in? 

Dalychia Saah: I think they're pretty receptive.  I think a lot of, I think a lot of us are realizing that like, we don't like the things that we have been taught are normal. Don't have to be our normal and that.

[00:16:00] Well, that might be like really unnerving to like rip the rug under somebody and be like, everything you thought was true is no longer true. But I think a lot of people who see it as that, like as an opportunity for them to expand. Their way of thinking and to select what their truth is going to be until like, explore like that space.

That, that possibility where we did not know possibility existed feels really energizing, but it can also feel really scary. And I tell my students all the time that like, there is sometimes resistance that comes up when people are talking about liberation or these new possibilities, because they could feel, they can really feel like someone's just like ripping the rug from under you.

 so it's a lot of mix of feelings. I would say that like, by the end of the semester, my students have like gone along with the ride and they're they're onboard.  and not that they're on board by meaning, like they believe what I consider to be true as they're true, but that they're open to this idea of like, we can question, we can critique, we can hold things,  in a way that we haven't been able [00:17:00] to do in the past.

And there's beauty with that. And also having responsibility about what do you do with that new understanding? And what does that mean for like old ways of being that we have internalized and normalized. And so it's a lot, but that's what I love about my class more than mine, like a workshop. Cause it works for him.

I have you for three hours and it's a lot to drop that on you. That's a good, okay bye. But I work a class, I have them for 15 weeks. And so we're able to go through that journey in a very, yeah. More in a way that you could hold the transitions that people go through. 

Tim Norton: Sure so that I think that's a great place to kind of segue into whatever hard conversations is typically about.

So, so let's start with normal and your regularly deconstructing normal and one really. Typical facet of normality. Normalcy is an erect penis in sex, right? Normal, normal sex. Usually the narrative will include something regarding [00:18:00] an erect penis penetration. So I imagine you've, you've deconstructed that once or twice.

Dalychia Saah: Yeah. I mean, it's.  it's, it's, it's something that I think about a lot. And it's actually, I've been thinking more recently about like the, about creating new erotic language and like that. Can we create words for experiences that are prejudicial, that don't involve penetration or that are not limited to only penetration?

I think we've limited sex too. Penetration and orgasm and it could be other things. And I think, again, when you like become expensive with possibilities, you start questioning like, okay, so me and this person just mutually masturbated, is that sex. If there was a penetration or if you and this person had this like really hot make out session and wrestling around and we're closer OD it never came off as that, not as sexual experience.

Right. And so I think when we start thinking about the things that we. The experience is that when I start thinking about the experiences that are [00:19:00] pleasurable to me, it kind of makes me sad that I can't and our traditional standard, those, some of those experiences don't kind of sucks, but some experiences that I'm like that actually was pretty shitty sides, but that counts as like that counts at sites.

Right? And so I love the conversations that people are having about like all the different ways that our bodies can experience pleasure. And I think this conversation is becoming more expansive to include queer sex. People with disabilities, people who don't want to have penetration in sex for so many different reasons.

People who like what we consider foreplay and see that as like the main activity. And why is that the thing that we're calling, like, we're just doing this prior to getting into penetration instead of being like, no, like maybe we just want to have like a sexy massage and like Russell and roll around on each other and like kiss and lick all over each other.

And that doesn't have to include meditation. And so.  yeah, and I think the way that we've limited. So being our penetration hurts a lot of us. It hurts people who cannot get a [00:20:00] rector who don't want to have penetration during sex. It hurts people who are having sex that has nothing to do with penises or penetration.

 so I think this new creation that we're doing around, like expanding what sexism, and hopefully like create a new language to call it is going to be helpful for a lot of us. 

Tim Norton: Yeah, the new language is I always love when language evolves and you start looking at the linguistics cause there's. There's so much power in language and just flippant words, like you just mentioned foreplay.

And I never thought about how oppressive. Yeah, because you're like, wait, what do you mean? This is for, this is before the plant. This, this could be the main course. I love 

Dalychia Saah: this part. Yeah. A lot of people do love that part. Seen as like, just as like really let's just get this over with so that we can get to the main thing when it's like, I actually don't need that.

I just want more of this. Let's just slow down here, but it's not [00:21:00] seen as important or as valid as when penetration happens. 

Tim Norton: I was talking on the show with Barry McCarthy and he,  He was talking about one of his favorite things to do was with something that he made every client do. Every couple was the man had to achieve an erection or, and let it go like three times during the course of, of, of an encounter.

And, and he said like, Every single one of them hate, you know, a hated to just like, let that release. But, but the way you're, you're talking about it, but what you're talking about right now kind of reminded me of that, of just accepting the play of it and whatever happens, happens. And there's so many more enjoyable things there's so 

Dalychia Saah: much, and it, it really sucks that we downplay so many things that we find part instead of, instead of having it all on the table, I think a beautiful challenge is for people to have sex [00:22:00] without penetration, because then you can like explore totally different things.

You might not have even known that like that spot behind your ear feels really great because you've never, you just kind of skip over and it gets a penetration. You might not realize you actually don't need penetration to orgasm. You don't need penetration to have a pleasurable experience. So yeah, I think it's great that people are getting challenged to do more things like that.

Even if it's hard. 

Tim Norton: Yeah. Even if it's, it's challenging you, you mentioned a minute ago that people don't want to have penetration for so many reasons.  could, could you go into a little bit of that as to why people might not want 

Dalychia Saah: penetration? People may not want penetration because they don't need it to orgasm or to have a good time.

And so they don't want that people might not want penetration because they've experienced some type of sexual assault and that's not the kind of sex that they want to have right now. People might not want to have penetration because they don't [00:23:00] feel ready for that.  And that that's just like, not where they're like, I hate that.

Like, when people say like, Oh, I want to have a sexual experience with you. That it just means to the, up to somebody that involves administration, which it might not, someone might just want to like have oral or just like do something else. So there's a lot of different things. And then some people might have,  different feelings around things that are penis shaped or around penetration that like.

They don't want to do that. Some people might have body dysmorphia and so they don't want to, they want to get to sexual experiences without bringing in body like genitals in a particular way. And then some people might have a right tile. What is, what is the word that

Tim Norton: I was saying? Issues, 

Dalychia Saah: issues,  to where they feel like, because they can't that they're having those issues that. Their, their sex is limited now, [00:24:00] instead of like thinking there's so many other things that we can be doing, I love talking about getting people to think about, Oh, go ahead. No, no, you go, they're their own wheel of pleasure.

Like, what are all of the things that make you feel good? Right. And so on my will include like booty rubs because I love getting like, like fuck massages. And like, I love naked cuddling. And there's like other things like nipple plan there's things that like, feel good that like all of those things can be explored instead of saying that like Cyrex has to go in this formula every time.

Tim Norton: So. I'm imagining one of the biggest challenges to this idea is going to be the guy or just the person with a penis who, I don't know, maybe there's some self righteousness in there and just is like, you know, forget all that. Like, this is, this is crap. Like I gotta, I gotta go in there. I got to penetrate, I gotta calm.

I gotta nut. [00:25:00] And, and that's, that's what sex is like in, and I imagine a lot of people. Resist, you know, thinking of challenging, that might be kind of like a difficult conversation to bring up with somebody and trying to work with a partner who's so like such a bulldozer or so like narrow minded or just traditional.

Dalychia Saah:  yeah. And I would say that like, if that works for you, if that works for you and the people you're having sex with them, like, go ahead. No, one's saying that you have to try. Whatever, you know, if you find something that's working for you, I guess you could continue doing it. But I do. But I think if it's not working for one partner, I think of one partner or whoever one person in the situation is like, actually this isn't working.

I want to have. Sexual experiences outside of this, which is really hard because a lot of people who are socialized to be women are not raised that to think that sex is for us, like sex is for our pursued hetero male partner. And so this whole conversation of like advocating for like, actually I don't want that [00:26:00] or that doesn't feel good or you go into early and I'm not aroused enough and it kind of hurts and it's dry it up, but I'm not in the moon.

And did it like all of that stuff. We don't get the space to say that out loud. But if you do have someone who was saying that, I do think it is a part of the responsibility of people who are in the partnership to say like, Oh, I actually want an experience as pleasurable for everyone involved and not just me.

 But, yeah, I don't typically work with people who don't want to work with my work is like, usually have like your hair cuts, you want to do something different. So,  but I, I, again, I think like what consent, I don't want to coerce to force anyone into do with something that they don't want to do. Cause then it's not going to be a pleasurable experience.

But I do think that like knowing how our bodies change and knowing how at any moment.  our ability size could change if we're lucky our age will change. And with that comes different body functions that like learning [00:27:00] to experience, pleasure and eroticism outside of penetration and orgasm can be really liberating for you for the rest of your life and not just say what works for you right now.

But thinking about holistically about what's going to work for you in 50 years, what's going to happen. If something changes what's going to happen, if your partner no longer wants to do this and like, how do you create space that is pleasurable for you all lifetime and not just like what works right now, because this is what feels good.

Yeah. 

Tim Norton: Hmm. I re I really like that. So I'm also, I guess I'm wondering, do. Do do men do males, do people with penises as well? Take your classes and seminars. Did you get both? 

Dalychia Saah: Yeah, we do. We've actually done one that was particularly for men,  which was more so of us being like, we want to know what y'all want to talk about.

And we were just really,  I actually thought, like, I, to be [00:28:00] honest, I actually thought the conversations would be a lot more about sex. And it was a lot more about relationships and intimacy. I think it was a lot more like, I don't know how to, like someone in our workshops said, I dunno how to, what did he, what did he say?

He was like, I don't know how to penetrate a woman with anything other than my penis. Like, I don't know how to like, let my heart be open. I don't know how to like, tell to like, just. Be seen and like to see her until like, make her feel heard. And he's like, I struggled with pillow talk. I struggled with the intimacy.

I've struggled with breakups, like, and I don't know where to. And so it was a lot of conversations around that. And then it was like a surprising moment when,  We like read numbers though, about how many people take orgasms. Like they all like were mind blown that people were not enjoying having, or that there was a possibility that someone to have sex with them and that faked it until that made them more open to like, Because I think there was a level of confidence of like, Oh, my game is good.

Like, I [00:29:00] know what I'm doing when it comes to sex. And then some of those numbers, they were like, wait, what do you mean? Like people evolve as don't mean penetration to orgasm. What do you mean? People fake orgasms. And so that opened them up way more to having conversations about like, Oh, okay, we need to have conversations about what kind of sex people want to have.

And then people also have to talk about like performance anxiety and like the pressure, especially as black men who have been. Hyper-sexualized in our culture, this idea that like, I always have to perform and I always have to like, be ready to go at all times. Then I can't say no that I can't say actually I disposed disputed shelter and I orange, or I want to cut off.

I want a booty Rob, like, you know, like not being able to say those things and feel like they have to always have penetrative sex. 

Tim Norton: What would you say to them?  

Dalychia Saah: I think, I mean, acknowledging how sexualized the culture is, particularly around blackness and particularly around black run and that they are oftentimes seen these stereotypes.

It's like you have the bigger penis and that year, [00:30:00] like the sexual proudness and so giving space for that, but then also like a, for me, As much as everyone else that like consent goes both ways, but all the way, then you have the right to say, no, you have the right to say, I don't want to do this. You don't have to feel.

And that like, if somebody is shaming you for it, that's probably not somebody you want to be hanging out with. Anyways. I know a lot of times like, People will like even women will shame men for like, not wanting to have sex with them. Right. They're right, right now.  so I think training a conversation for people to see that like your experience is as common, which I think a lot of people do a lot of ways that shame manifested like, feeling like you're the only one.

So creating space for people to say like, Oh my gosh, I also feel that too. And then affirming that you don't have to get tenue going down that path because everyone else has treats you that treats you like you're supposed to. That 

Tim Norton: must be a really nice thing to hear. I hope so. Yeah. Like taking away that pressure and I, I, it's a kind of [00:31:00] message that people probably need to hear dozens and dozens of times.

 but yeah, that, that permission. To,  isn't it all about permission at the end of the day? I feel like so much of this work is just permission. 

Dalychia Saah: I agree. I was like telling someone, I was like, I feel like I have like the easiest job, because I don't actually have to like, especially in someone who's at a therapist, I don't actually have to like tell somebody, like, I feel like with calculus, the only way to teach someone is like giving them step by step instruction.

And like, this is the right way to do this, but. When it comes to people's sexual journeys. So many times like people already know what they want to do, and it's just about giving them permission. So I feel like I'm just like lighting flames and then watching it run free. Like, but I'm not. So it feels like a really easy job to just be like, yeah, you can fantasize about that.

Yeah. You can try that. Yeah. You should do that. Yes. Like you're not weird for thinking that. And then seeing people like. Like that one permission gives them permission to explore so many other things that they've been denying themselves or [00:32:00] shaming themselves about. So it's a beautiful 

Tim Norton: word. Yeah. Yeah.

It's really nice. And so now I'm picturing the seminar and you're having a man, a black men. Giving them permission to, to not have, to have sex, to not have, to have an erect penis when you're naked with the person to not have to perform quote unquote, perform whatever that even means and, and what a nice normalizing message to hear it.

But then on the other end, like kind of schooling.  they're partners on how to not shame them for not going along and doing the thing that everybody in porn or the media is telling them that should be happening in the bedroom.  and then that's an important message too. 

Dalychia Saah: Yeah. Yeah. I've been doing,  I mean, even like, so I do this one talk called the oppressor within talking about the ways that we [00:33:00] like normalize.

A lot of different forms of oppression and having this practice, particularly with a lot of my students around the ways that we have been hurt by the system and the ways that we've helped the system. So the ways that we've been hurt by patriarchy and naming those, but we don't get to name that a lot of time in the system and then ways that we have perpetuated patriarchy, because it's a normalized, it's something that's been around us and it oftentimes happens without us even knowing it.

And so becoming more aware of. The way that we've been hurt by something and giving it space and holding space for it, whether that's like losing our relationship with our father. Once we had 13, because I could've sat on his lap, I knew more or. Being catcalled when I walked out of the street or being sexually assaulted or feeling like I can't walk at home by myself at night, all the different ways that we have to like survive within the system, but also the ways that we perpetuate it, whether that's say judging other women and slushing other women or shaming men for having small peanut or people with penises for having small [00:34:00] penises or.

Being,  transphobic or being homophobic tour and telling a person who doesn't wanna have sex with us, that they're queer, like all of these other things that we have normalized in our culture that we also end up sometimes doing and taking ownership for that so that we can become more aware of the ways that we're perpetuating the things that we say, where her fire that we want to see God.

 so yeah, it's a lot of. Deep introspective work, but I think it's the work that's needed. And as to move towards a more liberatory society and healthier relationships in general. 

Tim Norton: So I love all of those points and I kind of want for the audience to just let's spell one of those out. So this is again under the topic of the oppressor within.

So how, how. What's so bad about penis shaming or penis size shaming. Like how, how is that perpetuating oppression? 

Dalychia Saah: Yeah.  I, so for me, I think that like [00:35:00] body, all body shame is perpetuating.  Sizeism and like the ways that we feel like other things bodies are not seen as fully human or as like healthy or as worthy of other bodies, whether we're shaming, someone's body, because,  the color of their skin, like you're not as worthy because you're not white or their gender.

You're not as worthy because you're not CIS or whatever. I think like, Or because they're five, we're like, you're not as worthy cause you're a fat body. So all of that is the same. And so if we're going to talk about getting rid of the shaming of bodies, we're talking about all bodies, which also needs critiquey the systems that are told us is that like bodies, male.

Well, these are supposed to have giant penises, which ends up being not. Well, it ends up being shaming towards a lot of people who don't have giant penises and also ends up being like pretty transphobic to people who,  don't have, like, we're not given a penis up at birth. Right.  so there's this for me, [00:36:00] it's like, I can't, I can't see the value of like saying, well, we're going to take down this and this one form, but it's okay over here because these people have these identities,  And I think we have to do better at that because I, for me, liberation does not look like taking my oppressors place.

And so it's not me getting to the position of power where I can say, well, now I can shame men and white people all day because like, that's, that is, that is fundamentally against a value that I have, which is like, I believe that you cannot, you can not dehumanize other people without dehumanizing yourself.

And so the moment that I am. Seeing somebody as less worthy by the human. To me, that is the humanization. I am also dehumanizing myself and there's no way for me, shouldn't for me and my practice to truly be at peace and love with my body. At the same time of shaming, somebody else's body, it feels like a very connected practice.

Tim Norton: Absolutely. And [00:37:00] so then from a practical standpoint of just of just language. You know, a person is going to see this small penis or this flacid penis, and have these norms in their head from all the porn that they've seen. And they're going to ask you a discrepancy and they're going to have this reaction and they don't know what to say.

And maybe it's that moment of nervousness or, or some other kind of force that's acting in the bedroom in that moment. So what can they say? 

Dalychia Saah: 

That is a really good question. I feel like I'm like, I don't think I would necessarily react to the penis. I think it would be a conversation of like, what are we, what do we want to do tonight or right now,  as far as, because it could be that like penis is, or yeah, penis and penetration is now the table for what we're doing.

And so we need to have a larger conversation about like, [00:38:00] What turns you on what turns me on, what do we want to do? Like, what are you into, what are you not into? What are your, your, your boundaries like that, which is a conversation that I don't think a lot of us have over having sexual experiences. And so it's, it's hard for me to.

I don't know. That's a really good question. I don't, I don't think I would react to the penis. I'd make making a comment on it. Right. They want someone to make a comment about my breasts, 

Tim Norton: right. Even what they'd say out loud, but maybe what they'd kind of have to say to themselves, like in a coaching way or.

In a normalizing way or like, what did, what did I learn in class that semester? Like, this is one of those situations where I'm trying not to perpetuate any, any shameful situations. What did, what did Dr saw teach me about body positivity in this moment? Yeah. 

Dalychia Saah:  I think, I, I think in my head, I would just affirm like what a beautiful person [00:39:00] and then keep it going.

I think, like stay focused on the reasons that you're like. And to this person, the reason that you're here and not looking for deficits, which I think we're really good at looking for or what we consider deficits in our culture, 

Tim Norton: focus on the reasons that you're here and those might not come up. And then that's just a bigger message of what the heck are you doing here at all right.

Right now I'm just kind of reframing that moment where two people in this room or wherever we are in this car and this park. 

Dalychia Saah: Yeah. Yeah. I think folks, like for me, those moments of connection are so much more powerful than like looking for. Cause the, the moment that for me, the moment that I'm scanning somebody looking for something.

Wrong in air quotes. I also have [00:40:00] to believe that they're scanning me looking for something wrong in air quotes and that. Takes me out of this moment of connection, because there's enough things for me to be self-conscious about, about my body. You know, like all of us have been giving all these things that we're supposed to be self-conscious about.

So the moment that I go, let my head, my head space, go there on someone else's body. It comes like it becomes my inner dialogue around me. And I go, I wonder what they're thinking about me. And then I, then I'm just like, Suck it in and position over here, turn the lights off. So it's like, it goes into this very chaotic space.

And so my practice of like, Oh, what a beautiful person? Or like, Oh, like, I'm excited about this is also a practice for me to be like, Oh, I'm a beautiful person. And I'm excited to be here. Hmm. 

Tim Norton: I'm thinking about an analogy to some of the other ways that you've pursued pleasure or that people pursue pleasure in the last couple of years.

And I guess if you've cause cause people like let's say you're going to eat like your favorite meal [00:41:00] ever. So people will still have those doubts, like, Oh, this is gonna make you show up in my stomach or whatever. But once you've kind of made the decision it's it's time to enjoy, enjoy right. And then the last thing you want to be doing is, I don't know, analyzing your fork or what you're going to feel in the morning.

You just want to enjoy the cake or the steak or whatever the heck it is.  like you want to enjoy the person and your moment and your time 

Dalychia Saah: and yeah. Which is hard. I mean, it's, it's hard. Like getting out of our head into our bodies is not something we do well in this culture. It's not. And so it is very.

Hard to not have all those thoughts, judging that self judging voice, going through your head. That's telling you, Oh my gosh, if you eat this, you're going to regret it and did it as you're sitting in there taking everybody before, you know, the dishes over and you don't even remember taking a moment to just enjoy it.

And I think we go through a lot of activities like that, where we're just like in our heads, critiquing and judging ourselves and other people.  [00:42:00] and not just like, like you said, once we make the decision, like accepting and enjoying what you're, what you're there to do. 

Tim Norton: And we are two experts giving listeners permission to do that coming from different parts of the country.

And, and, and we're just saying, Hey, like it's okay. And the research backs it up. When you get out of your head, you're going to like your time in the bedroom more and it's okay. And people, actually, some people are actually able to do it and they have wonderful things to say about it. Yeah. 

Dalychia Saah: Yeah. And I think like, if that voice is,  is, is like, I don't know, for me, it's like learned, like I've learned to distinguish between my different inner voices.

Like the voice of me that is like, I don't want to do this and I'm forcing myself to do this.  which I've. I mean, there's so many times when I'm just like, I don't want to be on this panel, but I've been asking me on this, but like just all these like different things. I don't want to eat this meal, but it's already in front of me.

[00:43:00] I don't want to read the finishes book, but a very started, I actually don't want to be at this event right now with colleagues, but there's so many times where I've like, ignore that voice. So it's like, I've had to learn how to say, like, this is that one voice that like, doesn't want to do this thing. And I need to honor that voice and like knowledge of the thing.

And this is the voice that. Wants to do the thing, but it's scared to do the thing. And so there's like fear there and like I've learned to push through my fear towards the things that I want to do. Then there's a voice that's like, Oh my gosh, I really do want to do this. And I'm, I'm learning to actively move towards that.

But like, so I would say don't push do don't push. Have a voice that is telling you, this is something that you do not want to do, or you, and, and like, to not go along with that, because we've been taught to like go along with so many things that we don't want to do, but to like, just like understand the voice that for me, the hardest thing has been, understand the voice that like is a voice of, of like a, I guess a positive fear.

Like my, the voice that's like trying to protect me, but like, from. This, I don't know how to distinguish it. It's [00:44:00] something that I want to do, but it's like self doubt that comes up because it doesn't want me to, like, with my writing, there's like a lot of voices. That's like, Oh, you're not good enough.

Right. You know, again, I've I know writing something I want to do. So I have to learn to like, hear that voice would be like, I hear you. I'm safe. I loved,  you know, I could do this. I could take those like risk and trust on myself, which is totally different than the voice. You mean? That's like, you don't want to do this.

There's nothing in you that wants to do this 

Tim Norton: right. Right. There's, it's almost like you have to ground it in a, in a value or like a, a real, a specific goal. Like, I like this person. I have been attracted to this person before we had a good time. I can sit and enjoy this state.  if you don't have that stuff, like, I, I'm not sure.

I like this person he made he, or she made some weird comments earlier and,  Okay then. Yeah. Your body seems to have heard it and maybe it's time to listen to the part of your brain. That's saying, yeah. We're not 

Dalychia Saah: really into it. [00:45:00] Yeah. Yeah. And I am neuro-typical and so I don't know what that looks like for people whose bodies and brains are not telling them something that they can trust.

Right.  so that, those distinguishing between those three voices have been like very much my, a couple for me.  But I do want to say that. I don't know if it's like typical for every body and brain. 

Tim Norton: Yeah, no, definitely not. So some of the things that you mentioned regarding, you know, all the different reasons that we might hear, one of these voices inside the bedroom, some of them are very political and I'm wondering if it comes up in your work, that there is.

Micro level political activism to be done in the bedroom.

Dalychia Saah: I think the, I think it does come up. I think the beautiful place where it's been coming up is around pegging [00:46:00] for everyone who doesn't know. I mean, hiking is when somebody, particularly somebody with a vulva puts on a strap on and then like penetrate somebody with a penis that there has been like a lot of.

 work and research around like people with penises, enjoying posh, prostate pleasure, and like how that has like toppled. A lot of the things that they thought would make somebody like that would, that was like eMASS escalating. And like the, the people who have become more comfortable with pegging, like also have like seen their gender challenged in a really beautiful way.

And like this comfort in. Their own definition of masculinity, because I do think that like,  a part of so many structures that are oppressive is they define themselves by what is not. And so to be man is to not be feminine to be man is to be, is to not be weak too. The man is whatever. And so when people are like, Oh my [00:47:00] gosh, I've started my whole life thinking that my masculinity also meant that I had to be home phobic.

And that means that I have to avoid all of these particular sex acts. And then I'm able to enjoy these sex acts and also understand my gender and my orientation and all this stuff in this very different way. I've seen some people do work there. Then there's also people who were just talking about like the way that we house typically have sex with like people, what was on the bottom.

When people with penises on top mirrors like patriarchy and sexism in our society. And so something as simple as like person with the Volvo on top can also challenge,  power dynamics. And then I think people in the kink world have also been talking about power dynamics of ways. That ways that you can hold power in a way that is also really loving for the people that you have power over, which is not what we typically see.

And like an oppressive hierarchy where like the people with power are usually like exploiting and abusing the people that they have power over. And then I think he gives us this really beautiful example of like, [00:48:00] What it means to hold power with so much love and care for your people. So, yeah. So those are some of the things that I think come up pretty 

Tim Norton: often.

Yeah. Those, those are great examples.  pegging. So it's, it's good feminism to go out there and, and peg and, and, and teach, teach someone not only a way to. I don't stretch their ideas about their own gender, but also a really hot new level of vulnerability. 

Dalychia Saah: Yeah. Which is what comes out for so many people, penises who do it, is that like, they, that, like, they didn't know what it meant to be like a receptive to like, receive, to like have the level of vulnerability that it requires to like give someone this much care.

Over it like to open up this much to this and they were talking physically and then also emotionally, right? Like there's a level of care and trust and it is extremely, extremely vulnerable. [00:49:00] It's really, it's a very portable practice. And I think as people are getting more comfortable with it, they're also seeing that like it challenged the challenges them.

And I've also heard, like people say, like, I didn't understand the importance of lube until didn't understand. It could be painful that like they have become way, much more caring penetrators after being penetrated and like knowing what it means to like. Be aroused and the vulnerability that it takes for someone to like a lot to open themselves up to you.

 so yeah, I definitely think it's a practice that I think a lot of people are learning a lot things that challenge them sexually, but also like just things that they normalize as part of their masculinity. 

Tim Norton: Yeah. And, and the way you're talking about love.  and, and kink where, you know, I assume you met someone being loving while tying them up and, and you'd, you'd want a person who's getting penetrated by a, by a strap on would want the [00:50:00] penetrator to show some love in that moment.

That's a consideration. And is there enough lube there? 

Dalychia Saah: Yeah. Or not things that I think. People are people who are raised to me, men are taught as a part of masculinity to like, hold that power and that responsibility in a way that is caring intentional.  and that comes with a lot of communication, a lot of check-ins and a lot of just like vulnerability.

Tim Norton: Yeah. It would be something like I'm imagining like the, the sex education utopia, if that, you know, when you. Start having sex you're 18 or whatever someone took you aside and said, okay, you're going to get penetrated now to see you. What it's like to know, Hey, everything better be ready. You better be lubricated.

You better, you know, this person and, and listen, you know, what if, what if I don't [00:51:00] listen when you start just say, Hey, we're not ready. Hey, like, this is, it's not, not there yet. And all the different, yeah. Combinations of, of conversations that come up in that or should come up in that moment. 

Dalychia Saah: Yeah. Yeah. I think if a lot more people with penises had experienced penetration, the way that they penetrate would be so different.

Yeah. Yeah. And not that I'm like advocating for us to like all eight only penetrate, but I'm just that level of like consideration that is required. I don't know. I would like to think that it would change the way that people currently penetrate. 

Tim Norton: Absolutely. So let's, if we we've almost covered a full hour here, I kind of wanted to get a sense for the future of,  Afro sexology or just Aleisha in general or where, what you have in the works.

Dalychia Saah:  [00:52:00] yeah, so the future of Afro sexology, I mean, we're constantly growing,  where in the works of writing a book. And so we are trying to slow down on our workshops and we can give more time so that we have a video series. We recorded like 10 black people sharing their sexual journeys. It was the most beautiful thing ever.

And we have a video series like edited,  and we need to put them out. And so we're just waiting for the right time to do that. We are. I mean, we're constantly moving around for workshops. So we're going to be in Atlanta for sex down South. We're going to be in Cuba for the association of black psychologists and clinicians.

 and then we always have like some private things at like universities. And then for me, I'm just like, I'm just good. Like people, like I remember after the talk, people were like, Oh my God, what's next? What's next? I'm like, I feel pretty good feeling right now. I mean, I'm moving fully into my [00:53:00] university.

And so I really want to dedicate more time to thinking about my practice as a professor. And I'm thinking more about my practice as a writer. Because I, I spend a lot of time in my head and I want to figure out how to like, display this and share this in a way that makes people not only think, but feel as I'm still working to find my, my bright language outside of academia, which is very think heavy and not feel heavy.

 so I'm doing that and I'm also just trying to like, hold my own. Work right now. It's like, how do I, like, I quit my job, right. To do this two year thing of like, learning about my own pleasure. And now I'm moving more fully into my university. And it's like something that I love doing, but I'm also like, how do I maintain it?

W what I've discovered about myself in this journey and the middle point. So, like, I remember after my, the first day of like new faculty orientation, I like came home and I had to like, write down my definition of success, because I was like, I'm [00:54:00] not going to get. Brought into the system of like what they define as success and like, so trying to be really intentional with how, what it means to be in back in academia fully, and then constantly working to make sure that our work is way more inclusive.

Like we have to do way more work to make sure that we're, trans-affirming that we're thinking about ability status,  that we're thinking about size or we're thinking about queerness. I just think we. We can always improve. And so just being more intentional, thinking about class way more and like how that intersects with sex and our work.

Tim Norton: And did you come up when you set up your own personal definition of success?  could you give us a little highlight of 

Dalychia Saah: sounded beautiful? It was like me jotting down. Like if I look over my life in the next 10 years, like one of the things that I want to say I've accomplished or that I've done. [00:55:00]  and so writing that down and I was able to like, look at.

Most of them. And I was just like, okay, I'm on, I'm on the right track. Like I'm doing what I need to do. And it's just, I had to do that because my university is a research based school. And so they, like, they care about the million dollar grants that you're getting all of that stuff. And that's how they define success.

And I'm not interested in researching by people in HIV. And so I, I don't go after a lot of those million dollar grants and that's like, not even my work really. And so I just have to be clear what, what I what's important to me. And that's just, it's like, what am I values? What, what aligns with my values and not getting caught up or trying to seek external validation for something that I internally.

Can validate myself for which has been so much of my work these past two years. It's like learning to trust myself, learning, to validate myself, learning, to support myself and not seeking that externally. And I don't want going back into this environment to put me back in a space of [00:56:00] feeling. Like, I need to perform in a way that's different from my genuine self in order to seek external validation.

So I just said like, I have to stay on my own on my track, my track. 

Tim Norton: Yeah, definitely. Well, it sounds like that's really been working for you anyways, so I hope it's easy to listen to that.  yeah. I usually like to ask guests, like any, any final words for listeners and I'm thinking, you know, I don't really know the demographics of the people who listen to my show.

I don't get very good analytic data, but I'm wondering like, if, if it is like people that look like me and male and white, like, and. This is going to be a different kind of episode for them.  I'm just wondering, like, if there are some, some things that you would, you might like to speak to that, that audience who thought they were going to come here today and get some tips on how to stay hard in the bedroom and, you know, and then they're getting like some [00:57:00] different perspective on things.

Like if you had any like final words of wisdom for them. Oh, well 

Dalychia Saah: never with words. It wasn't, but words are reality.  I think that. I think that like, if, if this is like, you know, mostly why am I listening to this? I think that the way that we have talked about oppression is that we have limited into only thinking about how it harms the people that are oppressed and not also thinking about how it harms the oppressor.

And so now we're getting words like white fragility, where we understand, like, this is something that comes from like a construct related to white privilege, or we're understanding toxic masculinity, which comes from patriarchy. And I think like, as we're getting this language, we're also seeing the way that these systems of oppression, we have set up also harm the people who set them up.

And so I think like when we're having these conversations that are asking people to expand or to think about things that they have normalized and kind of bought into, it could feel very hard to like ask someone to stretch in that way. But to [00:58:00] all in all understanding that like what people are asking you to do is.

Is to understand that by liberating others, you're, you're liberating yourself by like us are moving the definition of like Sykes to being centered on penis penetration. You're creating the space for everyone to have an expensive amount of sex. Right. That includes all kinds of different things.  and that again can be scary, but in the end of the day, it will be so better for so many of us, because then we won't have to say here.

And be fighting and feeling so much shame and like negativity when we no longer fit inside of the box that was constructed for us. Because if we can all just like live outside of these boxes, then so many of the issues that we so many things that we think have issues or not issues because we didn't have, we didn't have center identity on these things to begin with.

So I hope that makes sense. To people who are not in these conversations every day. 

Tim Norton: Yeah. It does. It makes it all make sense [00:59:00] to me. Does it like that? I think that first point of, you know, it, it hurts the oppressor to like, in a lot of different ways, setting up these rules. Like, could you give us like a couple of examples of just like how it might 

Dalychia Saah: yes.

No, this is great. I rarely talk directly to white men. So I was like, okay. Yeah. You know, so I think, I mean, just like, as we're talking about toxic masculinity, And we're talking about like how, like even the workshop I did with, with mostly men, I was able to see that people are struggling with vulnerability.

Like what they're struggling with when they're talking about they're struggling with breakups or struggling with like the pillow talk that intimacy people are struggling with intimacy and vulnerability. And that's because we've made so much about masculinity around not being vulnerable. Right. And around being strong and about us following and stuffing down these feelings.

 and so [01:00:00] something that I tell. I tell people like women who are like, they want their partner to be more vulnerable. I'm just like, well, that also means creating space for him to cry. Right? Like if you're partnering with a man, like you can't say you don't want somebody to cry because that's weak, but then you also want them to like sit up there and share with you around.

Their personal issues. And so I think the way that we've constructed masculinity, it's created a lot of people who are not in tune and know how to communicate their emotions,  and are not as comfortable with vulnerability. Having said that, like, I think we're in a space where a lot of people are.

Question or like are now questioning and deconstructing masculinity and like saying like, actually I do want, like to talk to somebody about like mental health issues. I do want to talk to somebody around,  relationship stuff and intimacy and sex. And so I think we're creating space for that, but I think what we saw with how uncomfortable that people raised as men were with emotion, that vulnerability is a by-product [01:01:00] of the patriarchal system that we set up to be oppressive in that way.

Tim Norton: And it's lonely. Yeah. Not being able to be vulnerable, to say things and then have pillow talk and all of those things and then cry or whatever. Like, like while you feel like you're doing what Brad Pitt did in the movie. You still it's, it's, it's a pretty isolated place. So kind of changing,  deconstructing the Patriot here by breaking it down by, by making new rules, you get to not be the highest rate of suicide group.

And one with the least number of friends and people that you rely on and highest levels of heart disease and all of that you can connect. 

Dalychia Saah: Right. Right. And I, and just for me to like, My area. I mean, like we all have areas of privilege. And so even me, like, I know that I learned so much about [01:02:00] my gender from queer theory.

Like when people were able to like ask people, have deconstructed gender norms, I was like, Oh my gosh. I don't have to wear heels everywhere, actually hate wearing heels. And like that doesn't make me any less of a woman. And so which sounds so trivial, but there's just ways that, like I was boxed illimited into what I was raised to think of as femininity and the people who are outside of the box who were redefining gender and gender expression have created a space for me to say that like, Oh, I also don't have to fit inside this box that I've.

Thought I had to. And so I, I get, I do think like as we liberate people or we create societies that are liberated for all of us, we're creating space for like us to expand and to be fully human and weights that we've had to cut off to like go along with what these oppressive norms are. 

Tim Norton: Hmm really well said.

Thank you so much. I'm so this has been a great talk. If people need more than an hour and then they just want more Delecia where can they find you on the internet and in the world? 

Dalychia Saah: Yeah, [01:03:00] so delicious sau.com is my website.  I'm sure you'll have that spelled sober, not easy to spell.  and then Afro sexology we're on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, our website, and we have lots of really great content on there.

Tim Norton: Okay. Awesome. And they can go into classes at the university of Washington and St. Louis. 

Dalychia Saah: Yeah. So bad school of social work at the university of Washington. Sigma was all right. Social 

Tim Norton: worker. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much and I'll see you. Hopefully I want to go to sex down South. Yeah. I hope I'll hope to run into it at a conference 

Dalychia Saah: soon.

Thank you for having me. This was a good conversation.

Shout outs to the sex positive community, including sex educators, sex therapists, sex coaches, other fellow sex, podcasters, sex, surrogates, academics, sexual health, medical community, sex workers, the tantric community, and everybody else involved with having hard conversations. Bye-bye. [01:06:00] [01:05:00]