TODAY'S GUEST: Dr. Charlie Glickman, sex & relationship coach, a somatic sexuality educator

I'm extremely happy to welcome Charlie Glickman to Hard Conversations!

Charlie Glickman PhD is a sex & relationship coach, a somatic sexuality educator, a sexological bodyworker, and an internationally-acclaimed speaker. He’s been working in this field for over 25 years, and some of his areas of focus include sex & shame, sex-positivity, queer issues, masculinity & gender, communities of erotic affiliation, and many sexual & relationship practices. Charlie is also the co-author of The Ultimate Guide to Prostate Pleasure: Erotic Exploration for Men and Their Partners. Find out more about him at Make Sex Easy or on Facebook.

• WEBSITE:

  http://www.makesexeasy.com/

• Twitter:

• @charlieglickman

YOU'LL LEARN

• How to connect to your body

• The importance of being more mindful of what your body is doing when you’re aroused

• How to be more mindful of what your body is doing when you’re aroused

• Different practical exercises for engaging with yourself somatically

• About adrenaline and its use in anxiety vs. sexuality

• The importance and effect of breath in sexuality

• Breathing exercises

• Various facets of sex positivity

• Resources for becoming more sexually self-aware

• And more!

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING to my male sexuality and sex therapy podcast!

To get more hard conversations sent directly to your device as episodes become available, you can subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher!

Also, reviews on iTunes are extremely helpful and greatly appreciated! I read each and every one of them, and feel free to share your URL there so I can contact you later on and say thanks!

And lastly, if you have any questions (or would like answers to previously submitted voicemail questions!), head on over to Tim’s website.

About the Show

Introducing Hard Conversations, a podcast about male sexuality, and all things erectile, from the latest natural erectile dysfunction treatment to the best ed medical treatment. Therapist Tim Norton expands the conversation about male sexuality, adds context to why we struggle as a society to have hard conversations and breaks down how in a sex-positive environment there really is no room for taboos, judgment, or shame when it comes to penises.

YOUR online sex therapy and couple’s therapy HOST:

Tim Norton is a sex positive sex therapist working in private practice. He offers online therapy, online sex therapy, online sex coaching, and therapy and coaching for somatic symptom disorder.

Tim obtained his bachelor’s and master’s degrees from the University of Southern California. Tim is a proud member of American Association of Sex Counselors, Educators, and Therapists (AASECT), the Los Angeles Sexological Association, and works part-time with the Pain Psychology Center in Beverly Hills.

Hard Conversations Podcast Transcript

Tim Norton: Hello, and welcome to Hard Conversations. My next guest, Charlie Glickman PhD is a sex and relationship coach of somatic sexuality educator, a sexological body worker and an internationally acclaimed speaker. He's been working in this field for over 25 years. And some of his areas of focus include sex and shame, sex positivity, queer issues, masculinity, and gender communities of erotic affiliation, and many sexual and relationship practices.

Charlie is also the coauthor of the ultimate guide to prostate pleasure, erotic [00:01:00] exploration for men and their partners. Find out more about him at make sex, easy.com or on Facebook. Welcome Charlie, and thank you for being on hard conversations. 

Charlie Glickman: Yeah. Hi Tim. It's great to be here today. Great to be here.

Third. Time's a charm. Yeah, we'll get it this time. We'll get it. 

Tim Norton: Yeah. All right. So I described you based on your bio as a somatic sexuality educator, as one of your titles.  

Charlie Glickman: what is that?  so somatic sex education is,  an umbrella term that covers a pretty wide range of approaches and modalities. But what they all have in common is that,  it focuses on,  experiential body-based explorations of sexuality boundaries, consent touch.

 so for example, rather than. Talking about,  you know, how [00:02:00] to boundaries feel for you and when do you know whether you want to say yes or no?  somatic sex educators can use interactive exercises and then help people figure out what yes or no feels like in their body. So it's experiential and in the moment.

Okay. 

Tim Norton: Yeah. You know, I saw. You on sex with sunny Megatron on Showtime.  and that was you. You were, you were introducing a couple to prostate play.  and that was, that was pretty hands-on. Yeah. Is that a typical for the kind of stuff 

Charlie Glickman: you do? Sometimes it depends on what somebody is coming to me for. So for that show, right, we wanted to work with a couple that wanted to explore,  anal play.

And so,  I. Demond. I wear gloves for hygiene. I always use gloves with my clients. [00:03:00]  I'm staying fully close to and touch is one way. So those are sort of the boundaries that keep the focus on what my clients are coming to me for.  and yeah, some times I, I help people figure out what kinds of physical stimulation feel good to them.

 I had a client once who had gotten out of a. 15 year long, emotionally abusive marriage, and she was ready to start dating again. And,  didn't know what to tell the people she was dating that she liked because she hadn't been having good sex for so long. And so we did a series of,  of, of,  massage sessions.

And when we found things that she liked, I was able to name them for her and tell her, yeah, this is, this is how to tell this to somebody else. Hmm.  so that's one kind of session that I might do, but another one might just be around, [00:04:00]  how to tell someone that you don't want them to touch you. Right.

And so I might sit with somebody on the couch, in my office, and this is all prenegotiated, but, you know, put my hand on their leg and then they get to practice. Right. What they would do in a dating context, if somebody did that and they felt uncomfortable by that. And that way, you know, it's a safe opportunity to figure things out so that,  when it comes time for the real life application, you have some more confidence.

So yes, sematic sex education covers a pretty wide range of,  explorations. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: I got the sense from seeing one of your recent lectures though, that you're really up to date on the literature. You, you know, you were, you were naming the books and authors that, you know, I had to read in therapy school and then continue to read.

And so you're, you're [00:05:00] really well versed in, in that, in like trauma literature and, and general like psychology 

Charlie Glickman: literature. Well, thank you. I I'm glad that it came across that way.  it's amazing.  just in the last decade or so,  since polyvagal theory and our understanding of developmental trauma became more widely available or, you know, the work on attachment theory, that's been around for 40 or 50 years, but.

Our understanding of how childhood attachment plays out in adult relationships is relatively new. So I feel like we're at this really exciting time where the science is finally available to talk about these things. And,  yeah, I've spent the last few years really digging into a lot of these topics because,  unfortunately they got left out of my education.

Personally [00:06:00] and professionally, because we didn't have that information, you know, 30 years ago when I became a sex educator. So it's really good to be able to go back and, and,  fill some of those gaps in. Hm, definitely. 

Tim Norton: And I suppose I have. An idealistic idea of, of the sematic contribution to the field.

And maybe it maybe it's accurate. Maybe it's not so idealistic, but let me, let me explain it. Like I think of, okay, so a person comes in with a sexual problem and we could just talk about an erectile issue and the ability for the practitioner to even just. Touch somebody's forearm and draw attention to the stress that they might be holding in their body and point out their breathing by putting your hand on their Chester or any of the things that you could tell us more about what you do.

 sounds so beneficial to a client, gaining [00:07:00] insight. 

Charlie Glickman: Well, it is, and it's beneficial for a few different things for a few different reasons. One is that,  you know, in traditional psychotherapy and to be clear, I've gained huge learning and healing from therapy. So this is not a,  Slam on that modality.

I think it offers different things.  but one of the challenges that,  therapists face, and I know that you experienced this, Tim, is that people in order for a client to share with you,  something they need to be able to notice when it happens, they need to be able to talk about it and they need to feel comfortable sharing that with you.

No, of course you, as a practitioner can do a lot to help with their comfort level. But,  as an example,  No. So in the exercise I mentioned when I was helping a client, [00:08:00]  explore their, their yeses in their nose with like touching their leg with my hand.  I was able to reflect to them that,  you know, Hey, every time you tell me to take my hand away, you have a big smile on your face.

And it makes me think that you're worried about how I'm going to react. And then it turned out that they. Had a history of partners who would yell at them if they said no. And so the smile was an attempt to soften the boundary and protect themselves from my emotional reactions that they predicted right now, that's a really common experience, but it's not something that would necessarily come up.

 between a therapist and a client, you might see it in a couple sessions.  but I was able to catch it in the moment and say, Hey, you know, you're doing that smiling thing again.  and we were able [00:09:00] to work with that. And so it gives me different information than you get, and you get different information than I get, and they really,  compliment each other.

Yeah, definitely. 

Tim Norton: And so, What well let's, let's get into it. Let's talk about,  some of the typical things that happen in a session and, you know, how do you, how do you teach a person and teach a person about their penises teach shippers and about the, the arousal process? 

Charlie Glickman: Ooh, that's a great question.  well the, the first couple of sessions are always about building the container because you know, you can only lean into your edge is when you feel safe.

 as one of my colleagues put it, you need to be safe enough to feel brave on. And when we're talking about erection challenges, you know, and, and specifically talking about cis-gender men, right? There's all kinds of fears and [00:10:00] worries and stories that men carry about sexual response. Penises erection ejaculation.

And so,  we need to have a lot of safety for that first, just to be able to, to make that happen,  because you know, Assuming that there isn't a medical issue at end of course, we know that erections are affected by cardiovascular health and diabetes and blood flow and like all of those medical things.

But assuming that those have been ruled out and we ex we know that it's going to be an emotional piece,  you know, anxiety is probably the biggest cause of. Erection challenges and,  early ejaculation. And you'll notice that I don't talk about erectile dysfunction or premature ejaculation.  I don't talk about erectile dysfunction when it's not a medical thing, [00:11:00] because an emotional situation isn't necessarily a dysfunction.

Here's an example.  I was talking with this guy who was really upset that he wasn't getting erections. And we started talking about what was going on in his life. And it turned out that,  he'd lost his job. His home was in foreclosure. He and his wife were so stressed out. They were talking about getting a divorce.

Of course his penis, wasn't doing what he wanted it to do.  when we're. Flooded with adrenaline,  erections don't happen because the body is going into fight flight, right? It's, it's run away from the bear. That's chasing you, not have an erection and have sex. And so for him, there was actually not an erectile dysfunction.

It was a functional response to a dysfunctional situation. So I do a lot of work around [00:12:00] that because,  if you think that it's an erection problem, when it's really that you're stressed out about your job or you and your partner are fighting all the time,  having an erection, isn't going to fix the problem.

You know, your body, your body will find other ways to keep you from having sex. Well, 

Tim Norton: the thing that I hear most guys talk about in that situation is. I should be able to handle those things. Everybody fights with their partner. Everybody has issues with work. Why, what, what do you mean? I have anxiety. I don't have anxiety.

Charlie Glickman: And you hear the anxiety in your voice even as role-playing. Yeah. Right.  so some, some, yes, it's true that everybody has stresses in their life.  but different things will stress people out to a different. Degree, depending on where they are in their life.  as an example, you know,  some people like [00:13:00] to exercise a lot and they could go for a five mile run and bounce back the next day and be just fine.

Somebody else who doesn't go running, even if they're athletic and other ways. Is going to be really sore after a five mile run. So it's not a question of comparing how I respond to a situation compared to how you did in something similar. All that matters is how I'm doing in that moment.  and for the record, you can be super athletic and like, you know, you could lift weights and be really strong and you're still going to be sore from running.

 so to, to not overuse the comparison, but you can be super capable and confident in your work life, but then when you get into arguments with your partner, that becomes a much more challenging situation or the other way around. And one last thing I want to mention there is, is you [00:14:00] said that the line that a lot of these guys say, and I hear this too, is I should just be able to handle this,  two pieces there.

One is any time I hear somebody use the word should I'm looking for shame, right? I should be able to handle this means I'm failing. Some sort of shame of feeling embarrassment, guilt humiliation, because I can't do it. So anytime there's a should, there's a shame. And in this case, the shame is probably coming from the messages that men get about how we're supposed to be strong and confident and capable and have all the answers.

 you know, back before we had GPS, it was the equivalent of the guy who wouldn't stop to ask for directions when he was driving somewhere. These days we have GPS, but the equivalent is, I [00:15:00] should just know how to handle this situation. I don't need any help. It's the same thing. Right. And that shame.

Tim Norton: Literally from what you're saying. And then what I've I gather from others is it's basically just a shame that your body is doing something in response to this situation. That's actually something 

Charlie Glickman: called for yeah. Yeah. If you're, like I said, if you're being chased by a bear, that's not the time for an erection.

The problem is that our bodies can't tell the difference between,  the adrenaline that comes from being chased by a wild animal and genuinely being threatened versus the adrenaline that comes from. Your manager dropping a project on your desk at like four o'clock on a Friday or the worry about whether you're going to have an erection.

There's a reason why performance, anxiety causes erection [00:16:00] problems because your body's producing adrenaline. And that sends the signal of, Oh right. Not the time for sex. This is the time for fight flight freeze right 

Tim Norton: now. Before I started learning. I've been exposed to brief amounts of, of the somatic literature and a little Peter Levine.

And, and I've got a friend who's a as a somatic experience practitioner.  my concept of anxiety was, had a lot more to do with thoughts. And in the psychological literature and anxious thoughts and thoughts keeping you up all night. And I started to get the sense that sematic informed people, somatically informed practitioners,  paid a lot more attention to the body and, and how we carry anxiety in our bodies.

 could you share for the listeners some ways that they can tell just from physical symptoms, what anxiety even is? 

[00:17:00] Charlie Glickman: Yeah, totally.  well, first off w an easy way you can tell us somebody is flooded with anxiety,  is that they will frequently use all or nothing language. You always say that I never get what I need.

This is what always happens. That's a sign that they have moved up the, the escalation scale to a pretty high degree, but, you know, there's also more subtle variations.  Some things that I look for,  is,  changes in eye contact or if somebody makes eye contact with me generally. But when we talk about whatever the topic is, they keep looking away that might be a sign of anxiety.

 I'm also looking for,  their breathing. No. Are they able to breathe down in their belly or is their breathing fast and high [00:18:00] up in their chest?  when people are talking, I'm going to demonstrate this a little bit. So now I'm using my, my belly breathing, talking, and you can hear my voice and it's calm and there's ups and downs of my vocal tone.

And when I get stressed out, I might talk more like this and I'm going nonstop. And my throat is, and that's making my voice higher and I'm not stopping to take a breath. And I'm just going to talk and talk and talk and talk. That's another sign of anxiety.  depending on somebody's skin tone, their face might.

Change colors. Some people will get very pale. Some people will get very flushed.  that's more visible on people with lighter skin tone, but the, the mechanism is still there.  and I think the, the last one that I would suggest looking for is,  if you notice that there's sort of like a,  [00:19:00] a frantic weakness.

To the way that somebody is talking, if it's like, here's this thing and I'm presenting it as an emergency, we have to deal with it right now. If we don't something bad is going to happen and you can objectively see that it's not really an emergency, right? Like the car. Yes. The car needs to be moved from one place to another.

But if you wait 10 minutes, it's not going to be a disaster, right. That might be a sign that someone's in anxiety.  part of what makes all of this a little challenging is everybody's anxious responses can manifest differently with different people, different situations, different topics.  some people will, especially men, some guys will jump to problem solving.

Right. That's that's, that's a behavior that's basically saying, let me fix the problem so that I [00:20:00] don't have to feel anxious about it anymore.  yeah. So lots of ways it shows up, which 

Tim Norton: is pretty adaptive, which is a nice thing to be able to do, but. My understanding. And from talking to a bunch of different guests about this is when we are in that state.

It's not, it's often not sexy. People can be a little,  in a little bit in high alert and instill, or are really like that, or like fear and their sex and things like that. But for a lot of people,  it's going to interfere with arousal. 

Charlie Glickman: Yeah. And 

Tim Norton: can you. So, so you have all this wisdom on when people are carrying that in and how it shows up in their body.

 how do they get rid of it and their penises get hard for a second? 

Charlie Glickman: Okay. That's always the question. Right? Of course he jumped to that. Well, as, as far as,   the, the [00:21:00] challenges with jumping to problem solving. I'm, I'm definitely a problem solver, whether that's my personality, my gender training, whatever it is, but the thing that's important here is take care of the emotions first and then get to the problem solving.

And that's for two reasons.  first is that if you're coming from that emotionally reactive place, You're not thinking as clearly. So your problem solving isn't going to be as efficient.  the second piece is that,  there's often really good data in the emotions. And so by taking a look at them, we actually get better information for coming up with effective problems.

So, so the, the balance here is taking care of the feelings first. And then get into the problem, solving, jumping to problem solving too soon can feel very controlling and [00:22:00] invalidating, but if you never get to problem solving, you're going to be stuck in the same situation for the rest of your life. Hmm.

So is both. Okay.  so, so for example, with, with,  this sky, you know, who this hypothetical guy we're talking about,  I might approach it in a couple of different ways. I might approach it from the perspective of, so, you know, what's going through your mind. What are the thoughts and what are the feelings you're having right before all of this?

Are you feeling worried about not getting an erection? Do you think that your partner is going to be upset with you?  Are you telling yourself stories about, well, I should just be able to do that. What are the thoughts and feelings that are there?  and let's take a look at those.  you know, maybe the story for you is if I don't have an erection, I'm not a real [00:23:00] man, or I'm not a good lover, what what's going on there.

And then I think the important piece is to slow way down. And do this in small steps.  I do a lot of work with people,  around,  breathwork practices.  and in fact, I'm going to demonstrate one right now. I'll talk you through it. And I invite the people listening to join us and see how this feels for you.

So it turns out that when we exhale longer than we inhale, it slows the nervous system down. It's the same thing that,  you know, my parents used to do when I was a kid, when I would break something and they would have that long side, they go. That. Yeah. Right. We do that because we instinctively know that it's calming our bodies down.

So all we're going to do is [00:24:00] repeat that five or six times.  and so,  I'm going to do this. You can follow along. I'm going to do a two count inhale and a four count exhale as you exhale. Imagine that you're gently blowing bubbles through a straw, into a glass of water, right? Gentle bubbles. Okay.  and so,  this is what it looks like.

It goes in and out,

in and out

and do two or three more of those with us.

Just one more time

[00:25:00] and now just go back to your regular breathing. And,  Tim, what did you notice doing that? 

Tim Norton: Well, I noticed that. I was starting to relax and I was having this thought of, but I want to stay a little on point. I want to be in interview mode. I want to be sharp. I was like, I don't want to relax right now.

Charlie Glickman: Right. You, you could feel it. You could feel the relaxation. Yeah.  some people will find that,  they start to get sleepy. If you Yon doing this, that's a great sign. It means your body is slowing down.  You might notice that your hands and feet feel a little bit light.  if that happens, that's totally fine.

But if you start getting pins and needles, it means that you're actually hyperventilating. And so just go back to your normal breathing patterns.  but this is something that you can do. We, we spent what, [00:26:00] 20, 30 seconds just now doing it. You can do this in the car. You can do this at home.  you can do this sitting up.

You can do it lying down. I actually do this literally every night when I get into bed and I've trained myself to fall asleep in about 30 seconds because my body now knows. That when I do this breathing pattern, it's time to relax. So this is something that you'll get more benefit from the more often and more regularly you do it one or two minutes maximum is all you need.

 and so I'll, I'll teach my clients this. And when we're talking about the situation and they start to talk faster and higher like this, and they're going, going in that direction, I'll jump in and I'll say, okay, wait, let's slow down for a moment and take a breath together. And by doing it together, I'm [00:27:00] joining them in it.

And I'm also calming my nervous system down, which they'll be able to pick up on and calm down themselves. So this is something that you can do if you notice you're getting anxious.  if you notice your partner is getting anxious,  if you're in the middle of having sex and you start having racing thoughts, and you realize that your penis has gotten soft, No stop what you're doing.

Pull out if this is the penetrative sex moment,  do some breathing, do some connecting with your partner and then come back to the erotic energy and see if that changes anything. Hmm. So 

Tim Norton: that would be a nice couples exercise in 

Charlie Glickman: a sense. Yeah. It's really helpful for the partner,  to also do it. Partly because again, we're doing it together.

I get more [00:28:00] relaxation when you're joining me, but also it puts us both on the same team here with me. You're not against me. And that, that will help for most people. Hmm. 

Tim Norton: No. How could a guy, what would you ever assign or incorporate breathing into an assigned masturbation homework exercise, or even something you might do in a session?

Charlie Glickman: Oh yeah, absolutely.  Joseph Kramer who founded the sexological bodywork,  modality, which has now,  Overlap somatic sex education. He makes this really interesting observation that most boys,  learn to masturbate as quickly and quietly as possible because you don't want to get caught. Right. Like whether you're 10 years old, 15 years old, whatever it is.

 we also learn to [00:29:00] hold our breath to be as quiet as possible. And so there's a lot of men who,  don't make any sound during sex or masturbation. They kind of hold their breath and hold their breath. And then at the end, we'll go,  the more you breathe, the more erotic energy can move through your body.

So I might suggest to somebody, you know, set a timer for 10 minutes and pleasure yourself whether you have an erection or not pleasure yourself for 10 minutes and focus on. Long deep breaths for as long as you can, as you get more turned on your breathing will naturally get shorter and faster.  but the more you can hold on to that long, slow breathing, the more benefit you'll get out of it.

It works the same way with exercise, by [00:30:00] the way that like, you know, for the first, if you go, if I'm a runner, okay. So if you go for a run or a bike ride or whatever, for the first quarter or half mile, try to keep your breathing as relaxed as possible. And then as you get more.  more up to speed. Your body will just naturally shift.

 it goes, it goes a long way and, and,  related to it. I'm just realizing one other piece I want to mention is a lot of men masturbate that like the death grip on their cock and is fast and furious and hard as they can.  there are. Probably a couple of dozen different erotic massage techniques that you can do with a partner or by yourself, different sensation, different pressure, different Mo different moves.

And,  you know, [00:31:00] if you're only doing the hard furious, you know, jacking off as, as quickly as possible, that's like eating one food your entire life. Every time you eat every meal, you eat,  learning lots of different ways of touching yourself.  you you'll be amazed at how much it improves your masturbation and,  by extension, how much it improves your sex with a partner.

Tim Norton: So let's, let's flesh out all the aspects of that. If, if you would,   so guys going to do 10 minutes of breathing and pleasuring himself. So what do you mean pleasuring himself? If he isn't direct? Like what are ways he could be doing that? 

Charlie Glickman: Sure. There are actually some erotic massage and masturbation techniques that work better when you're not fully hard.

 so,  for example, No, [00:32:00] where if, if your penis is partially erector or actually fairly soft,  you can do a move called rock around the clock walk, which is basically like, you know, you're pulling the stroke towards your head. That would be 12 o'clock and then one o'clock and then two o'clock. And you're basically it's, it's almost like a slow motion helicopter kind of motion.

 You know, you can hold the shaft of your penis in one hand and massage the head with your other hand,  when your penis is softer, the skin is stretched here. So you can play with that. You can tug on the skin of the scrotum more easily.  you know, there's a lot of different techniques that you either don't need an erection for, or they work better when you're soft.

And might 

Tim Norton: you have them pay attention to their favorite parts of that exercise? 

Charlie Glickman: Yeah, exactly.  I like to have people,  rate on a scale of [00:33:00] one to 10, you know, how good does this particular move feel to you?  in this moment, because it can change from one situation to the next,  you know, Some guys discovered that like, Oh, I really like soft, gentle touch around the Corona or on the head of my penis.

I never knew that because I've always been then doing the hard, fast overstimulating techniques. Hmm. And then what should they be thinking about? That's a really good question.  I don't know that there's really a, should I do recommend doing these explorations,  without porn and not that I think porn is inherently bad.

I think that, you know, there's a lot of reasons why people. Enjoy it, but,  when we're focusing on the images on the screen, it's a lot harder to feel what's happening in the [00:34:00] body. So rather than worrying about what to think about, try to focus. On the physical sensations,  kind of like if you were doing a wine tasting, right.

When you're tasting something, you're focusing on what you're tasting. You're not like looking around the room or having a deep political conversation. You can have those other times, but it takes your attention away from what you're doing. So,  Focus on the sensations. Okay. Yeah. If you're doing this with a partner, you can also give them feedback, like,  a little firmer, a little softer try using your fingernails.

Right. And really explore things like that with,  with someone else and all the, while 

Tim Norton: breathing. Yeah. Breathing in the, in the way you, you guided us through 

Charlie Glickman: a few minutes ago. Yeah. As much as you can. And like I said, when you get more turned on. Then let that happen. [00:35:00] It will change to get 

Tim Norton: faster. Yeah.

Okay. And then is this. 10 minutes. Would, would you generally find that guys do this until they evacuate late? Or just, is that 

Charlie Glickman: not recommended? I think it depends on where somebody is in their trajectory. So if on a scale of one to 10 of arousal, 10 is the point of no return, right. Or in sex therapy speak,  Jackie Latori inevitability,  Point of no return is a better name for it, I think.

But so maybe when you're new to this,  do it until you hit a six and then go to what is already familiar and then maybe another time do it until you hit a seven or a seven and a half. Like see how. Much arousal you can feel while still breathing and focusing on the sensations.  [00:36:00] the, the more you do that, the easier it's going to be to do that with a partner.

So it builds up over time.  but I have no problem with like doing this exploration for, you know, a few minutes. And then, you know, jerking off until you come. Right. And then like wrapping up that way. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm, I'm not somebody who argues that like a jacket slating should be delayed or you shouldn't do it more than, you know, some people will tell you, you shouldn't do it too often.

 I say, do it as often as it feels good to do. 

Tim Norton: Okay. So let's go back to this hypothetical guy and it could even be the guy who's having a hard time with wife and job and everything. And he goes home two weeks straight, 10 minutes a day, breathing and masturbating comes into your office and still not working.

I'm trying to have sex with my wife. I don't know. 

Charlie Glickman: So I would ask him, Hey, you know, when you masturbate, do you happen to erection? And if the answer is, yes, [00:37:00] that's when I might start looking into what's going on in the relationship here, you know, what happens? Do you feel like your, your wife genuinely wants to have sex with you?

Do you feel her desire for you?  do you feel criticized? Do you feel blamed?  you know, that's when we start looking for some of those. Relational pieces. And then the question I have is what do you notice in your body that, Oh, like every time you think you're being criticized, you get flushed with adrenaline and you start getting really defensive.

Where do you feel that in your body? Oh, it's a pit in my stomach. Okay. So then what I would say to him is start to pay attention to that feeling in your stomach. Because,  there's a really good chance that you're not noticing it when it's only at a [00:38:00] three, by the time you notice it, it's at a seven and it's too late then.

So the earlier you can notice those feelings, the easier it is to intervene. But 

Tim Norton: it's always at a 

Charlie Glickman: three. It's been, 

Tim Norton: it's been like that since, since I was, you know, I that's what I hear a lot. Right. I've I've had that little pit in there since I was 15 years old. 

Charlie Glickman: Yeah. And so, and you're right. That's such a common response and that's a place where,  you know, we start to.

Look at some of those earlier patterns.  you know, what's the story behind that. And you know, if, if what does that 15 year old who's still inside you?  you know, what does he need? Around this, you know, did it happen because you were in the high school, gym locker room and you saw boys who were older than you, or further along in puberty, and you suddenly developed anxiety [00:39:00] about the fact that like they had bigger penises than you, or they had more pubic hair than you.

 that's going to be a different situation than somebody who grew up in say a very religious, conservative household who got lots of messages that like, you know, your parents walked in the room when you were in your bedroom while you were masturbating and you got shamed for that for months, right.

That's going to be a very different. Reason for that same pit in the stomach. And so,  that's something that I can help some people with. It's also something that I might refer someone to a therapist around it, depending on the limits of my 

Tim Norton: okay. And other than. Breathing. Do you know any somatic techniques for getting rid of something like a pit like that that might, might help a 

Charlie Glickman: little?

Well, I think it's more that we get better at not letting those feelings takeover. [00:40:00]  I'll, I'll use myself as an example.  my nervous system leans towards anxiety. I get activated and revved up pretty easily. Right. If I'm having a bad day, that's going to happen, but I've gotten more practiced at noticing when the car is speeding up to like a four and a five and intervening then, and saying, Hey Tim, this conversation is really getting to me.

Let me take a break and get a glass of water, and then we can continue. Right? So to a certain degree, we never really get rid of some of these things. We just get better at. At not letting them take charge.  yeah, I wish I had a better answer than that. Cause I would love to not be as easily anxious as I am.

 but that's not how my body works. Right. And so 

Tim Norton: just noticing [00:41:00] in, in life, what, what gets that pit down from a three to a two and two to a one and doing 

Charlie Glickman: more of those things. And I do have some other tools that I'll use,  Things that came from,  tension and trauma release exercises, which is a sematic modality that's that's,  works with the nervous system.

 you know, Somatica, which is another modality that I'm trained in, has some tools for that.  there's a wonderful book by Stanley Rosenbaum Rosenberg. It's called,  accessing the healing power of the Vegas nerve.  He is,  a body worker and a close friend of,  Stephen Porges. And they've developed some, some,  practices that work with the nervous system when we're all spun up.

 so I do a lot of the body-based stuff. And then [00:42:00] when it comes time to do some of the more talk oriented work, that's where a therapist is hugely helpful. So 

Tim Norton: if one were to pick up a copy of accessing the healing power of the vagus nerve, what, what might be a typical exercise or practice as you say it in a book like 

Charlie Glickman: that?

So,  Let's see. So first off, if for people who were familiar with polyvagal theory, you don't need to right. Read the first section of the book.  I actually think there are some other books that are a little more clear in explaining how polyvagal theory works.  but one of the exercises that he has in there.

Is,  because when we go into anxiety, the, the fight flight response makes the muscles in the back of the head and the neck get really tight.  those muscles are super important for orienting the head to look for danger and for danger. It's [00:43:00] why, when we're stressed out, we get tension headaches because the muscles in the neck get rigid and that cuts off blood flow.

And then we get tension headaches.  It's not the only reason for tension headaches, but it's a common one. So, so he has these exercises for specific stretches,  to help release that tension. And I have found it to be really effective.  he's also got a diagram in his book showing four of the most common.

Pain patterns are when we get tension headaches, and then he shows different places on the neck to massage. So like, if you've got a, if you've got a,  a headache that's above your eyes, here's the spot to massage. If it's in your jaw, in the back of your head, here's the spots.  and,  I've been surprised at how useful it is.

Hm. Yeah. It's made a big difference for me. Awesome. And my, and [00:44:00] my clients. Yeah, no, that 

Tim Norton: sounds good. Sounds great. So, and the book kind of walks you through that. Have you seen good videos of people doing like really helpful grounding stretch or, or 

Charlie Glickman: I've seen a lot of videos,  The challenge with doing it over video is that you can think that you're doing it correctly and you're a little bit off, so that can, that can be a little challenging.

 but,  Yeah, I should look for some more of those and see what's out there. Okay. 

Tim Norton: Yeah. Maybe we'll, we'll post them in the, in the podcast notes.  so, but just in general, there, there are different areas of your body that you can, you can stretch and relax that will kind of chip away at your, at your general anxiety, especially if you do it on 

Charlie Glickman: a regular basis.

Yeah, exactly. And, and because life is anxiety producing,  You know, there's always [00:45:00] going to be reasons to do these practices, right? If this is not a one and done kind of deal, this is something that,  you know, you need to keep doing because life is going to stress you out. 

Tim Norton: Hmm. Yeah. So I imagine there are probably some listeners who are hoping to learn the stretch or the, or the breathing technique.

And then they might not practice it. And they're just going to try to use it the day of, of the sex. 

Charlie Glickman: Yeah. And it doesn't work as well.  you know, this really is something it's like playing a musical instrument or learning to cook or getting into shape or whatever it is.  you need to rehearse so that you have the tools when you need them.

A,  a friend of mine, who's an EMT. Likes to say that the time to learn first aid is before you break your leg. 

Tim Norton: Okay. But then, and then I'm going to hear the comment of, but it's sex. I should just know how to do it. And other people don't [00:46:00] have to rehearse. They just, they just do it 

Charlie Glickman: well. So there's two things in that one is that we've got this cultural myth of sex just naturally happens.

Let nature take its course. And you can do that if you want to have so-so sex. Right. But every single person's body is different, their nervous system is different. The things that they enjoy, you know, there's all of these different pieces.  nothing in sex works the same for everybody.  and so this idea that we should just magically know how to do it.

 a lot of that comes from the fact that we don't talk to young people about sex. It would be the equivalent of,  never talking with a child or a teenager about money, pretending money doesn't exist. You're not allowed to talk about it. And now you're 18 years old. Here's a credit card. Good luck with that.

[00:47:00] Yeah. So,  this isn't,  this isn't a should thing. I mean, honestly,  for, you know, other people who aren't doing these things would probably have better sex if they did, but also related to that. How do you know they're not doing these things exactly. Right. Unless you watch people have sex, I'm not talking about porn cause that's performed for the camera.

 but even if you've had group sex experiences, you're still not seeing what those people are doing at home. Right. I, I suppose, unless you're a nonconsensual Voyager and you've hidden webcams in somebody's home, which is super creepy. You don't know what people do behind closed doors. Yeah.  I definitely, I promise you, and I know, you know, this 10, that, like I talked to lots of people about their sex lives.

They do not look like what other people imagine them to [00:48:00] be. Yeah, 

Tim Norton: exactly. Nope. As you talk, it strikes me that you, you probably gained your expertise on, on prostate and an anal play before the somatic,  education that you have. And I'm wondering, is there, is there overlap? Is there, is there a crossover, a and B  what can.

A good strong familiarity with prostate pleasure and an anal pleasure do for erections or, or can it, is there, can it help? 

Charlie Glickman: Yes. Well, it depends. It depends because one of the reasons why erection difficulties happen is from a too tight pelvic floor. Hmm.  a lot of men have tight pelvic floors,  in part, I think it's because culturally, [00:49:00] you know, men in, at least in, in American culture tend to not to move their hips.

Like if you go, if you watch guys walking down the street or you're at a club and you're watching guys dance, a lot of men don't move their hips. Now of course there are cultural variations around that.  But men, you know, part of why men tend to have lower back problems is from tight pelvic floors.

Right? And so,  massaging the perineal, which is the area between the scrotum and the anus,  or receiving anal massage can help the pelvic floor relax, which makes erections easier. Hmm. I think,  prostate play. Also has benefits because it teaches guys that we have more erotic zones on our body than just the penis.

 the, the prostate really is the male G-spot. So if you think about, [00:50:00]  if you've ever been on the giving side of G-spot play and you know, how much your partner enjoys that, you know, imagine that you get to receive that just as much.  and so. Just recognizing that there are more options.  it does two things.

One is it creates more ways to feel turned on. And two, if you don't have an erection one evening, that doesn't mean you can't find something else. That's going to feel really good. Hmm. So,  and, and yes, I, I discovered prostate play and learned all about it before I got into the somatic work. In some ways,  I got into this work, I started exploring, you know, this part of the body that gets ignored a lot at the time.

Hmm. 

Tim Norton: And what would be a good way for somebody to get started on exploring their [00:51:00] prostate? 

Charlie Glickman:  I wrote a book about prostate plan play generally, is that you do wants to know how to do it safely. There's some technical pieces that make a big difference. And,  so my biggest recommendation is don't copy what you see in porn.

 and that's for two reasons. One, is it the people in porn. Do this a lot. And so it's easier for them to just dive right in as it were, but also porn doesn't show you all the warmup that happens before the camera gets turned on.  so it looks like you should just be able to stick a toy besides your or somebody else's anus.

In the same way that a cooking show will say, you know, have half a cup of chopped onion and it's just magically there on the counter and you don't see any of the prep.  porn gives it us unrealistic ideas about anal play. [00:52:00]  I would. I would definitely say to somebody before trying it for the first time, do a little reading about it.

 you know, obviously I'm going to mention my book, the ultimate guide to prostate pleasure, but also the book's website.  prostate pleasure.net,  has a lot of solid info.  and there are more and more companies out there offering information on Anil play.  one of them is B vibe, the letter B B V I B e.com.

 they have excellent resources on anal play and how to make it pleasurable. Hm. 

Tim Norton: Okay. Well, thanks for that. You know, We're actually somehow this hours flown by it. I feel like you could, you could share wisdom with us for four hours on this topic.  I, I talked to most of my guests, guests at least briefly about 

Charlie Glickman: Viagra.

Tim Norton: do you, do you have any thoughts [00:53:00] on, on Viagra and Jen? 

Charlie Glickman: Well, I think in a lot of ways, Viagara is a mixed blessing.  it's. You know, it can definitely help somebody feel more confident if they take it.  something like 40% of the effectiveness of Viagra is due to the placebo effect. But because if you think you have the support of the medication, you feel more confident.

Red. So, so it definitely has benefits around that. Having said that,  if the reason why you're not getting erect is because of emotional challenges,  those aren't going to go away and Viagra doesn't fix those.  and I've talked with a lot of guys who said, yeah, Viagra worked for a couple of months and then we stopped having sex for these other reasons.

And it turned out that they were actually all connected. [00:54:00]  so,  Viagra can be really helpful and it's not gonna fix everything. Okay. 

Tim Norton: And I guess in in, I also wanted to talk about it from the, I don't know if you'd call it the polyvagal perspective or the somatic perspective.  but also how well does the polyvagal camp.

Charlie Glickman: have a stance 

Tim Norton: or, or speak much on BDSM and then on that kind of touch and that kind of,  violence and, and, and, you know, those States is there, 

Charlie Glickman: do you deal with that? You know, I haven't seen anything from. Like the folks who specialize in polyvagal theory talking about kink specifically.  but my personal take on it is that the difference between consensual pleasurable, kink and abuse is the [00:55:00] difference between being on a roller coaster versus, you know, going down a steep Hill and the brakes in your car go out.

Hmm. Right. What, what makes it safe within the context of kink is that there's the, the agreements, the relationship, the container, all the things that create safety. So that there's just enough of that feeling of like the roller coaster to make it fun. It's when we don't have those pieces, that things can, can become real.

 real challenges for folks or, or shift into abuse.  but you know, ultimately for me, it's about what works for your body and your heart and your mind and good for you. That includes being tied up in spanked or whatever else it is.  as long as everyone has a smile on their face at the end of it, go for it.

[00:56:00] Hmm. Now, 

Tim Norton: would you just go ahead and could you write that book?

Charlie Glickman: I'll add it to my list of things I need to write. Cause I, I have like three others. 

Tim Norton: Yeah. Well, and that's the thing is that one reason I was really excited to, to see at the ACA conference that you were presenting on this, I hadn't known that you had, you had evolved into,  the somatic world is that every time I learned about a new kind of therapy.

I feel like they don't really get into sex, you know, whether it was CBT. I haven't seen the CBT of sex book. I haven't seen the DVT version. I haven't seen, you know, the sematic therapy and sex. And then I don't even see chapters. And in books, you know, and really popular ones, really, you know, really, really well,  published, like I haven't seen,  Bernay Brown talk a ton about, you know, graphically about [00:57:00] sex and, and the ins and outs and, and really dealing with it.

 so I, I'm just, I'm excited. You exist 

Charlie Glickman: and I'm happy.

Yeah, no, no, you go, I wasn't really question. You're right though. You know, there are all of these different modalities, but as a profession, outside of people who specialize in sexuality, most therapists are really afraid to talk about sex. Yeah.  you know, you don't get much training in it, even though it's something that affects everybody, whether they're partnered or not, whether they're sexually active or not.

 but therapists don't get much training around it. If any. Minimal training.  and,  and so it's really left this, this gap in the field, you know, I would love to hear about like, what are ways that somatic [00:58:00] experiencing or cognitive behavioral therapy can help specifically around sex. And that's why I go to the ACEP conferences.

 but yeah, we, we really need it. 

Tim Norton: Now we really do.  well, and you know, and so to the listeners out there, we've, we've attempted this interview three times and in the, the first and we've had technical difficulties,  but the first two times you made a point to make a distinction between,  You know, between talk therapy and somatic sex education and,  and the importance of the boundaries and talk therapy around,  not touching and keeping those.

And, and,  so I wanted to, you might, you might feel like now that you've said it twice, that you've ever feeding yourself, but it is a really 

Charlie Glickman: important point. Yeah. Well, and I think,  Yeah, let me see if I can, I [00:59:00] can pull that back out now. I understand why the boundaries around touch exists for therapist.

I think that they have their own problems. I talked to therapists who, you know, won't even shake their client's hands or give them a hug at the end of a session.  and, and the reason for that is partly because the profession hasn't really developed,  Good understanding of sex and the, or boundaries, but also because there are many, many examples of therapists who violate their client's trust and safety by engaging in sexual behavior with them.

And so the profession has said, Hey, we'll play it safe. Note to touch.  I think that another reason for that is that,  the issue isn't about whether there's touch or not, the issue is about,  the purpose behind it [01:00:00] and the boundaries around it. But it's really hard to know what somebody's intention is.

 it's easy to ask. Did they touch you? It's harder to determine what was their intention when they touched you.  and so from a legal perspective therapists, as well as, as professionals in other realms have just decided it's easier to say no touch. Yeah. But. Yeah. Yeah. The downside is that you miss out on all of this information and it creates a really artificial dynamic,  you know, especially for people who take it to the extreme of like, not even shaking hands.

Yeah. Yeah. 

Tim Norton: And I, and I love the, the rise of the, of the somatic stuff.  in response to even a couple of the exercises that you showed at the lecture that I attended, I've [01:01:00] already tried with clients. I've already had couples do some of those basic touching exercises and they're so powerful, they're they, they give me so much information,  in the room and it's really cool.

Charlie Glickman: Cool. Well, yeah, we covered a lot today. We 

Tim Norton: did.  do you have any final thoughts for the listeners out there? 

Charlie Glickman: Yeah. Whatever you do,  sexually, you know, by yourself or with a partner, follow your breath and follow your pleasure because those will be the, the tools that help you figure out how to create the sex life you want.

Hmm, 

Tim Norton: follow your breath and follow your pleasure. I think my social media person is going to tweak that as your quote,  what's what's on the horizon 

Charlie Glickman: for Charlie Glickman. Well, these days I've stepped back a little bit from teaching workshops and just, you know, I was traveling a lot.  so I have [01:02:00] been.

 you know, staying mostly here in Seattle and working with clients over video, as well as in person.  I, but I'm also,  going to be taking two more trainings over the next year or so.  one of them is like a pro with Betty Martin. She's the one who developed those exercises you were describing.  now that I've been doing this work for a few years, I want to see what it's like.

To take that workshop again.  and,  I'm signed up for a training next year on,  trauma and how to support people who are healing from it. That's those, those are my next things. And then hopefully someday that will turn into my next book. 

Tim Norton: Oh, okay. Awesome. I can't wait for that next book.  yeah, like I was saying, we, we need it.

 we need more, we need more sex books out there, so, so, okay. Well, thank you again, Charlie Glickman, and I hope to run out and [01:03:00] run into 

Charlie Glickman: you out in the field. I look forward to it. Have a good one.

Shout outs, the sex positive community, including sex [01:04:00] educators, sex therapists, sex coaches, and other fellow sex, podcasters, sex surrogates, academics, sexual health, medical community, sex workers, the tantric community, and everybody else involved with having hard conversations. Bye-bye. [01:05:00]